Spoilers Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Grading & Discussion

Discussion in 'Star Wars' started by Commander Richard, Dec 10, 2017.

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Grade the movie.

  1. A+

    13.8%
  2. A

    17.6%
  3. A-

    14.8%
  4. B+

    13.8%
  5. B

    7.2%
  6. B-

    6.6%
  7. C+

    3.1%
  8. C

    5.9%
  9. C-

    5.9%
  10. D+

    1.4%
  11. D

    2.1%
  12. D-

    2.8%
  13. F

    5.2%
  1. starsuperion

    starsuperion Commodore Commodore

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    Seems justified to me. Hamill knows Luke better then Rian Johnson, Hell he along with Lucas established the character to begin with!
     
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  2. Campe98

    Campe98 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I respect that fans are upset. I respect that Hamill is upset.

    But I think a lot of this is misplaced. Oh, sure. I would have loved to see Luke Skywalker be the end-all, be-all, take on the First Order in person kind of guy a lot of fans are upset we didn't see. Who wouldn't want to see that? But what Johnson did to the character was far more interesting. He basically deconstructed the character and rebuilt him. The idea is that heroes aren't always who you make them out to be. They don't always live into the legend. In The Last Jedi, we saw a Luke Skywalker who had seen so much death, so much destruction, who failed to save his nephew that it had dire consequences for the galaxy. Yeah, he believed in his father until the end, but people change. This isn't the same optimistic Luke we knew at the end of Return of the Jedi. He'd been through a lot, much of which is left to our imagination or future writers to fill in. But I have to believe that the 30 years between times we saw him was not an easy journey.

    A friend of mine suggested that having Luke beat down and destroy every First Order officer other than Kylo when the two of them would have a real duel on Crait would be akin to a blowjob -- all gratification and no substance. I have to agree with that interpretation. (I actually suggested perhaps it was more to masturbation. He corrected me suggesting that would be a fan film. :p)

    What we got instead was something that was inspired. Luke literally proved he was the greatest Jedi of them all, by choosing not to fight, but at the same time, sacrificing himself for the greater good of the galaxy. Had he shown up on Crait, he wouldn't have gotten as far as he did. This was Luke's only path. And in the end, he created the true legend of Luke Skywalker. One that the galaxy would never forget.

    You can disagree with me if you want. I respect that. I just think it was brilliantly plotted and executed.
     
  3. EJD1984

    EJD1984 Captain Captain

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    Just a few random thoughts.

    I’m not sure if anyone else has brought this up about Rey’s parent’s non-reveal.

    Remember back in Empire Strikes Back when Luke ask Yoda about the Dark Force cave: “What’s in there?” Yoda replies “Only what you take with you”

    So the Dark Force cave on Ahch-To had no idea who Rey’s parents are. And when Kylo told Rey about her parents, that was after he touched her, and picked up on her darkest fears.

    I think she still could be Luke’s daughter, but he doesn’t know about her. Remember, Vader didn’t know Leia was his daughter. As a Jedi, Luke could have had a “moment of weakness” with a woman he loved, before the Luke-Klyo Jedi School incident. And after the new Jedi temple was destroyed, she disappeared, gave birth to Rey, and hid her away on Jaku a few years later.
     
  4. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Just give it a rest, please, for the sake of your own credibility. She's not a "legacy character", never was a "legacy character", and is never going to be a "legacy character" ... and that's perfectly fine.
     
  5. Claudia

    Claudia Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Quite frankly, I wouldn't rule out another revelation about Rey because that scene with Kylo was a bit fishy, as was the cave-scene. And like with other issues (mainly Kylo acting as mini-Vader and him shedding the mask right at the beginning) it simply showed that someone envisioned another path for the story than originally seen when writing TFA. Otherwise, especially given that TLJ is set right after the conclusion of TFA, not like ESB 3 years after ANH.

    I don't think Rey needs to be a legacy character - but neither should her characterization depend on the fact that she isn't. Maybe she should just stand on her own feet, so that no one has to ask who her parents are... and that's still a bit lacking. And doesn't get better by emphasizing in every single plotthread the message that it doesn't matter where you come from...
     
  6. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Rian Johnson's intent was straightforward, and Abrams isn't likely to retcon the reveal because it's 100% aligned with the things that, by his own admission, drew him to Star Wars as a kid.

    Rey literally being "Rey from nowhere" is the absolute embodiment of the idea that "I could be Luke Skywalker" that Abrams and so many other children of his generation walked out of ANH with back in 1977.
     
  7. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think the box office and the fan reaction, especially if both have a demonstrable impact on the overall box office for TLJ, will be indicators in how Disney wants the franchise to go forward, whatever or however Abrams might feel about it. And we see from the passing of the baton from Abrams to Johnson that Johnson had quite a bit of freedom to discard, remix, or rearrange things as he saw fit, almost like he was ‘correcting’ his issues (and albeit some fan complaints likely as well) with TFA. At that time there was no intention that Abrams was coming back, but now that he is, I wonder if he will go back in and undo some of what Johnson did, and prompted by a fretful Disney to do so.
     
  8. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Abrams knew what Johnson had planned for Rey's parentage before TLJ was released and before he was brought on to do E9, and Lucasfilm had zero issues whatsoever with Rian's narrative choices for E8.

    Rey's parentage isn't going to be changed, and there's nothing about what Johnson did with her and the "question" of where she came from that is in any way inconsistent with TFA.
     
  9. David cgc

    David cgc Admiral Premium Member

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    There have also been interviews that said Abrams and Johnson both independently came up with the same answer for Rey's backstory, and Daisy Ridley said she was surprised more people hadn't already figured it out, since she thought it was made pretty plain in TFA (probably referring to the bit where Maz tells Rey that her dream of her family coming back for her is just a fantasy, and she'll have to go out from herself to find what she needs).
     
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  10. Romulan_spy

    Romulan_spy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I did see the fan theory somewhere that Rey could take on the Skywalker name as a tribute to Luke. I think that would be interesting. It would be a way of keeping her parentage the same but still paying homage to Luke.
     
  11. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    People "glommed onto" the idea that there was a "mystery box" in play with regards to Rey's lineage when there actually wasn't, and refused - and, in some cases, are still refusing - to bow to the facts, which have been out there in the ether for nearly two years.
     
  12. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Campe98,

    I got to say that some of the pro-TLJ arguments are pretty good on this board, but I still am not convinced that the film couldn't have handled Luke's story, not to many other aspects of the film's plot, better. I did like how you put it that Luke showed he was the greatest Jedi by not fighting. It recalls Mace Windu saying that the Jedi are keepers of the peace, not soldiers in Episode 2, which is contradicted by the end of Episode 2 and very much so in The Clone Wars series and Episode 3.

    And I do get that characters change, but I also understand the frustration-because I share it-that we don’t get much explanation for why the original heroes or the galaxy they saved change. (And ‘change’ should be in quotations a bit because for all the talk of change many of the Star Wars tropes remain. The change advocates have no problem that Johnson essentially turned the First Order into the Empire and that the Resistance had become the Rebellion by the end of the film. The change advocates didn’t have problems with more X-wings, more TIE-fighters, more star destroyers, and even more superweapons). There's a very thin line between brilliant call backs and unnecessary or gratuitous fan service.

    The original trilogy heroes are frozen in amber, in a sense, for many fans (especially the legion who haven’t read any of the EU material or any of the new canon material for that matter). They are frozen in amber because that’s how we last saw them on film. They were happy, the war was over or close to it, Luke had redeemed Darth Vader, Han and Leia had declared their love for each other, etc. But a lot of that hopefulness is undone by TFA without a lot of sufficient explanation.

    I think they needed like an Episode 6.5 movie or TFA needed to better explain why the heroes had arrived at this point. Why would Luke, who had been proven right, against all other evidence at that point, that Darth Vader could be redeemed, in the original series, would let Ben go off and join Snoke, would let the First Order continue to blossom to the point where it does now imperil the galaxy and has killed billions or trillions by this point? It makes sense from the standpoint of using Luke to explore the vagaries of legend and myth and how our heroes aren’t what they are cracked up to be, but is it true to the character that was established in the original films? I’m fine with change, but it has to be organic. I felt that Johnson’s take on Luke here jumped a few steps ahead to fit the story he wanted to tell.

    In TFA we already get some deconstruction and a devolution in terms of Han Solo, so we continue on with a deconstruction of Luke in this film. I also don’t think the films have done Leia much favors either, though she had been treated a slight bit better. She was steadfast while Luke went into self-imposed exile and Han just slunk back to being a criminal. That being said, the ancillary material could arguably cast Leia as a bit of a warmonger who formed the Resistance to fight the First Order without the official backing-at least-of the New Republic. I’ve only read a little about that, and not any of the novels so I could be wrong that Leia went against the wishes of the New Republic.

    How is the ‘true’ legend of Luke Skywalker in TLJ different or better than the previous legend of Skywalker, one that inspired Rey and others? Luke was already inspirational at the start of TFA. I think he could’ve been even more inspirational if he had never went into exile and helped Leia form the Resistance and take the fight to the First Order. It might have saved more lives and ended the war by this point.
     
  13. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Up until 6 years before TFA, the galaxy is at peace; yes, there's growing political tension within the New Republic and there are remnants of the Empire lurking in the Unknown Regions, but there is little reason to suspect that those things will create a breaking point for the 'status quo' as it's existed for nearly 30 years, so there's actually not as much "backhistory" to be filled in or explained as perception says there is.
     
  14. starsuperion

    starsuperion Commodore Commodore

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    Abrams had a role in TLJ as well. He was an executive producer. He along with Kathleen had already approved the story and direction. The next installment will be continuing the storyline. Abrams is most likely on board with all that Rian had in TLJ. Tho Abrams isn't the most original producer. His ideas are variations on movies, even his signature TV show lost was a variation on a number of shows.
     
  15. Claudia

    Claudia Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, coming from parents with no legacy isn't the same as moving on - even a legacy character can be told to move on. So, that doesn't really mean much.
     
  16. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I heard that Abrams was the executive producer which means he was supportive of the direction of TLJ. But what would it profit Abrams to put up a stink about Johnson’s ideas if he seriously had issues with any of them? Why ruin a good relationship with Disney when he wasn’t intended to come back and direct Episode IX? And why burn a bridge or damage one that might prevent him from directing future Star Wars or other Disney movies? Or why hinder a fellow director’s plans or stomp on his vision?

    I agree with you that Abrams isn’t the most original when it comes to storytelling so he might not have had any issue at all or minor issues when it came to Johnson who presented a somewhat bolder vision that would move the saga beyond some of the nettlesome questions that TFA raised, but Abrams likely had no answers for anyway.

    But since Abrams isn’t the most original storyteller, and if the backlash has bite, I could see him seeking to repair the rift with fans by giving people what they say they want. So, we could see that Ren’s revelation about Rey’s parentage was deception on his part (despite Johnson’s intention for it not to be. It reminds me of some of the fuss over Blade Runner, where you have different camps of the creators and cast arguing over whether Deckard was a replicant or not. The intentions of the creator isn’t always paramount, especially if the project goes to another person or company that might have its own ideas.)
     
  17. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think we can infer that Luke knows about Snoke and we also know that Snoke seduced Ben to the dark side and Ben took several students along with him, and this presents a major threat that should have prompted Luke to do act on and not just hole up for several years while the galaxy marched toward war. I just think that the post-ROTJ political scene was not well-explained in TFA. I can’t say about the ancillary material because I’ve struggled to be much interested in any of the post-ROTJ. I read Shattered Empire and that story was very weak (though the artwork was top notch). In any event, the ancillary material shouldn’t have a bearing on what is communicated on screen and I think TFA erred in not laying out the galactic scenario better. And TLJ just pushed past a lot of that to basically recreate the Empire and Rebellion conflict of the original trilogy.
     
  18. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It hasn't yet been established how much time elapsed between Ben's fall and the events of TFA, but it could not have been more than a few years, so, at most, we're missing details for a a period of about 5 years (since his fall hasn't happened as of the events of the novel Bloodline - wherein the political tension in the New Republic breaks wide open and the First Order emerges officially - which take place 6 years before TFA).
     
  19. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    More a frustration that the characters changed is my observation of that perception.
     
  20. starsuperion

    starsuperion Commodore Commodore

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    Why is there even a need to deconstruct Luke as a character? This whole notion of showing your heroes as a let down..it's a tired trope. What fun it would be to have seen the Luke of legend doing legendary things..but then that would be upsatging the new characters Disney is pushing.

    Also, as far as Luke being this hero to Rey.. Until she was told by Han in TFA Rey acted like she never heard of the jedi. But once she heard about the force, that's all she needed to become a jedi, use mind tricks with no training and so on..Mary sue..

    Many of the characters seem to have forgotten the legendary heroes who won freedom for the republic are presented as old, tired, and forgotten. So how showing Rey her hero (of whom she knew little to nothing about) is relevant to the fact that the point of the new movies is to intoduce a new generation of heroes, and kill off the older ones, much the same way Diseny pushed for in Marvel comics? That is their intent. They did it there. They did it in TFA, and that's been their plan all along.

    Its no wonder fans were upset with Han dying. Carrie fisher's death means Leia is now also gone, and Luke is dead now in the movies. They effectively killed the triumvirate of main OT heroes, and have been trying to present this new series as better.

    Look the resistance! Look new X-wings! (But better). Look new empire/ First Order (but better, our death star is a whole planet and we can take out multiple planets at once) look a new Jedi, she's a girl and can,do anything without training! She's like Luke (but better) look! A new Vader in Kylo Ren, he's a badass like Vader (but better) look! A new Sith supreme leader Snoke! (he's like palpatine, but better and because Kylo killed his master early, he's better then Vader). Look! A new "join me and we can rule the galaxy scene" but better cause its Kylo and Rey..

    No wonder legacy fans are pissed off. Just like Marvel comics fans got pissed off when they replaced all the heroes with less then favorable replacements, then tried to do a series called legacy, where the new crowd meet the older, the older says you're just as good as me. And the story said, yea but better...

    This new franchise is rude, obnoxious, and kicks the older fans in the teeth, all while saying we have nostalgia for you, come watch! But if you don't like our new characters, we don't need you, or care. You like Kylo Ren says are old, the past needs to die, kill it off of you have to.

    Wow..great message to write in that dialogue, you now have definitive proof of the view Rian Johnson has of the old trilogy and Lucas legacy..

    So to my fellow older legacy Star Wars fans, the studio, director, and Disney are telling you..yea we want your money, but the beloved characters you enjoyed, they are a thing of the past. Get over it. We don't care about them, or you. We just push nostalgia so you bring your kids, buy our merchandise, and your time as a fan and catering to you is and has been over with. You don't matter anymore. We sucked you in with Episode 7-8. Now go watch 9, bring your kids, and shut up and pay us money. Yay Disney!...

    Unreal..
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
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