Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion (HERE THERE BE SPOILERS)

[sttngfan1701d]

They basically made Rey, a total novice, win a lightsaber battle against a MUCH more experienced/powerful opponent because...the Force? The script? It screamed contrivance to me.

She's shown being highly proficient with her staff. I'm sure she had to be to survive on her own.

A couple people I know say she handles the lightsaber like a staff fighting-wise. I'm not skilled enough with either to know that - but she's definitely skilled in close-quarters combat already.

Also, thought you did mention it, I think you're discounting Kylo taking a bowcaster shot (shown to propel people hit with it backwards) right around his gut.

Yeah, he was wounded. Angry and emotionally distracted. My brother saw the movie before I did, and complained about the sequence, and I said "Well, people online are saying that Kylo was wounded, so that's probably why he lost." And my brother said "Yeah, but...just watch it. It's not believable."

And it wasn't. Even if she's a skilled fighter, even with Ren wounded, she shouldn't be so proficient with the Force so quickly. He should've been able to overpower her like he did when he slammed her into the tree. But she is shown as being able to overpower HIM by pulling the lightsaber to her, and then turning the fight around? With zero training? And a mind trick with zero training?

"Yer a wizard, Harry!"
"The wand chooses the wizard, Mr. Potter."

I kept thinking of that after watching the movie.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

I bought the art book associated with this film. There were things which I would have liked to have seen carried into the film - there is a painting of the wrecked AT-AT in a canyon and there is a painting of the interior of the castle. Both felt more " real" to me than what was in the film. It made sense that a person would take a home in a tank, when that tank is protected from being swallowed by a sandstorm which would be the case in a canyon. The castle interior in the film felt more like something I would experience in a video game - a large structure with small rooms. The bar room felt small to me.

For me, I sense a jarring transition when Leia and Han are having their conversation about their son. Was there extra lines in this conversation that were cut?

I do not understand how the film makers found themselves in a situation where they had to write the script as the film as it was directed. They started in 2012 and worked on the film for the next three years.

I have a vain hope that some of the answers for questions raised in the film will not be found in extended material. Yet, that seems to be the case. If it continues, I hope the franchise does not create a Halo 5 situation - where the only way to understand it, I had to have read and interacted with all the other extended material.

I think it is a bad idea to judge the performance of BB8 based on its "real world" counterpart. The Star Wars universe has technology that is not available to us, and this technology might account for BB8's performance.

 

[theenglish]

I have a theory about this that I mentioned in a different thread. I think the idea of the Force Awakens goes beyond just referring to Rey. I also think that Luke's search for the jedi temple and his disappearance is about more than just Kylo Ren.

I think that something has unleashed the Force into the galaxy, allowing people to use powers that would previously have been far beyond their training. Kylo Ren reads minds and stops blaster bolts, while being a novice in many other respects, emotionally unstable, and not even having learned how to build a proper lightsaber.

Rey's abilities emerge relatively quickly after being exposed to the lightsaber.

I'd guess that these are not plot holes or writers misunderstanding the source material but an integral part of the plot going forward.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

After Force-pushing Rey, Ren was subsequently injured by Finn. So he was further diminished. And even then, after successfully obtaining Luke's saber (which had been calling to her, lending a level of credibility to her receiving it, rather than Ren), Rey was very much on the defensive .... until she finally accepted the Force. At that point, the Force allowed her to use her already-demonstrated-potent fighting skills (defeating multiple opponents on Jakku) to push back against a wounded, unstable, unfocused, unhinged adversary.

So no, she wasn't "automatically awesome without any training." It took time and the willingness to accept the Force which, along with her already-present skill, allowed her to defeat a more experienced, but clearly diminished opponent.

I think that something has unleashed the Force into the galaxy, allowing people to use powers that would previously have been far beyond their training. Kylo Ren reads minds and stops blaster bolts, while being a novice in many other respects, emotionally unstable, and not even having learned how to build a proper lightsaber.

Rey's abilities emerge relatively quickly after being exposed to the lightsaber.

I'd guess that these are not plot holes or writers misunderstanding the source material but an integral part of the plot going forward.

That's how I interpreted the events in the film as well (though, I'd say Rey's abilities really began to emerge in the Falcon - Finn asks how she flew it so well, and she replies that she doesn't know, which is basically the embodiment of the "feel, don't think" mantra Qui-Gon gave to Anakin).

 

[DWF]

I don't think should be overlooked, like I said Ren looked right him after refused to fire on the villagers and he knew it was Finn who helped Poe escape. According to Qui-Gon nothing happens by accident, it's all the will of the Force.

 

[sttngfan1701d]

Yes, but how did she know how to utilize the Force so well in so short a time? That's essentially what bothers me. Leaving aside her fighting skills.

You have to accept that the Force "awakened within her" and her "letting it in." But she's doing things innately that used to require training as established in this universe. But I guess we're going by new rules as of this movie. The Force is behaving differently or something

 

[{ Emilia }]

How did Luke know how to utilize the Force to fire that crucial torpedo at the first Death Star?
The thing is probably just that you have to give in to the force and let it guide you. That's also what Obi-Wan told him while he was training on the Falcon. Don't think, just feel the force. And that's pretty much what Rey did when Kylo kept pushing her.

A lot of force usage seems to be really intuitive in emergency situations. And it has been like this in all the movies so far.

Plus again: She was good at fighting with her staff, he was an emotional mess after killing his dad and he was seriously injured by Chewie's bowcaster and he wasn't fully trained. In the realm of Star Wars it seems pretty realistic for the Force to guide Rey. She found some kind of peace in the force in that moment. It was obvious when she closed her eyes. While Kylo was an emotional wreck.

 

[USS Triumphant]

How old were the younglings in ROTS? Because if I remember correctly (and I may or may not be), they were already training with Master Yoda. Young Rey in the flashback looks to be older than some of those younglings were. Is it possible that she actually has Jedi training that she doesn't even really remember?

 

[Greylock Crescent]

^ It's certainly possible, particularly if her memories of her early childhood have been somewhat modified (e.g. to remove the identities of her parents and/or why she was left alone).

You have to accept that the Force "awakened within her" and her "letting it in."

Considering the fact that the movie's subtitle is The Force Awakens and the scene explicitly shows her "letting the Force in," I don't think it's that hard to accept.

But she's doing things innately that used to require training as established in this universe.

What things?[/Anakin]

Seriously, though, she has experience fighting with her staff. She's obviously skilled at it. Adapting that to the lightsaber, after she's let the Force guide her actions, against a clearly diminished foe, is not an egregious chasm of disbelief to be suspended.

 

[{ Emilia }]

But remember: Destroying Death Stars is just like shooting womp rats.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

And trench runs are just like Beggar's Canyon back home.

[/nostalgicsigh]

 

[sttngfan1701d]

How did Luke know how to utilize the Force to fire that crucial torpedo at the first Death Star?

Obi Wan gave him a hint, with a big booming voice from the cosmos.

The thing is probably just that you have to give in to the force and let it guide you. That's also what Obi-Wan told him while he was training on the Falcon. Don't think, just feel the force. And that's pretty much what Rey did when Kylo kept pushing her.

And that's my issue. Luke was told stuff by both Obi Wan and Yoda. Rey was not. She had a vision and then started doing things innately. As far as she was concerned, the Force was a myth and then an hour later, she's in a castle and Maz Kanata is telling her to "Let it in," after which Rey bolts, getting the hell out of there. But then, with no guidance at all, she starts getting proficient at doing stuff (NOT the fighting per se, but mind tricks and Force pulls and pushes). "Yer a wizard, Harry!"

A lot of force usage seems to be really intuitive in emergency situations. And it has been like this in all the movies so far.

And this is the only way that I can look at it. Either this or she's a Force sevant.

Let me stress that overall, I did like Rey. And Finn. And as I posted a few pages back, their relationship was one of the highlights of the movie.

 

[{ Emilia }]

"Trust the force" isn't exactly an incredibly useful hint that Obi-Wan gave Luke during the battle. Did you pay attention to what Kylo told Rey right before she seemed to realize that she needs to trust the force instead of only her own abilities?

Anakin used the force before getting proper training. Luke also force-pulled the lightsaber on Hoth without anybody teaching him how to do that. Using the Force to destroy the first Death Star seemed completely intuitive. No further training needed. And Rey just... let it in, too.

Like I said a lot of stuff seems to be intuitive if the Force is strong in you.

You also ignored that Kylo was an emotional mess, not fully trained and badly injured. Even my cats could've fought him in that state.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

And that's my issue. Luke was told stuff by both Obi Wan and Yoda. Rey was not.

Rey was also "told stuff." By Maz Kanata. As you, yourself, mention.

She had a vision and then started doing things innately.

No. She started doing things innately at least as early as the Falcon (the dialogue was explicit - she knew how to fly, but as far as flying The Falcon so well, she didn't know exactly how she accomplished it - i.e. it was her ability with The Force).

As far as she was concerned, the Force was a myth and then an hour later, she's in a castle and Maz Kanata is telling her to "Let it in," after which Rey bolts, getting the hell out of there. But then, with no guidance at all, she starts getting proficient at doing stuff. "Yer a wizard, Harry!"

The Falcon sequence already demonstrates proficiency, without belief. Her subsequent experiences with Ren force (pun intended) her to believe ... to the point where she explicitly "let's the Force in" during the duel.

A lot of force usage seems to be really intuitive in emergency situations. And it has been like this in all the movies so far.

And this is the only way that I can look at it. Either this or she's a Force sevant.

It's both, actually (well, prodigy is likely more accurate than savant).

 

[theenglish]

I like the idea that Rey may have been Luke's student at one point and sent into hiding because she was too strong with the force.

I am also wondering if something like Anakin's force ghost has taken up residence in the lightsaber. This would be something similar to what happened in Splinter of the Mind's Eye, a novel that was supposedly based on early ideas for the Star Wars sequels. In that novel, the ending is very similar to the ending of TFA. Leia fights Vader in a duel until she is injured at which point Luke joins the fight. He defeats Vader because the spirit of Obi Wan has joined with him.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

^ So Anakin's "presence" was part of Rey's acceptance of the Force, and, therefore, part of why she succeeded?

I suppose it's possible. But that runs contrary to the explicit "Stop taking my hand" intent of Rey's character in the film.

 

[sttngfan1701d]

I did not ignore Kylo being compromised. I mentioned it. I said it was an excuse for HIM to be off his game, but NOT for her to be good enough (yet, anyway) to out-Force him.

And again, Luke had training. Obi Wan was teaching him to do stuff and use the Force...and we don't know how much time passed between ANH and ESB. Presumably, during that time, he was working on using the Force, "stretching out with his feelings" and getting proficient and doing stuff like pulling and pushing and jumping, and he was still shaky against Vader. He got in a lucky hit (like Finn did), but Vader mostly screwed Luke up in their first fight. Rey had no time at all to acquaint herself. It just happened because...plot.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

It just happened because...plot.

I suppose ... if your assessment ignores all of the story elements (Rey's demonstrated combat skill on Jakku, Force enhanced abilities piloting the Falcon, Han Solo's confidence in her, being called by the saber, Maz Kanata's guidance, being "awakened" by Ren's use of the Force on her, Ren being wounded, emotional and unhinged, Rey finally accepting the Force to defend her friend, etc.) that led to that moment.

ETA:
And again, any comparison of Ren to Vader is, well, rather silly.

 

[Corran Horn]

And it wasn't. Even if she's a skilled fighter, even with Ren wounded, she shouldn't be so proficient with the Force so quickly.

How could anyone possibly know that?

He should've been able to overpower her like he did when he slammed her into the tree. But she is shown as being able to overpower HIM by pulling the lightsaber to her, and then turning the fight around? With zero training? And a mind trick with zero training?

We don't know she's had zero training.

 

[theenglish]

^ So Anakin's "presence" was part of Rey's acceptance of the Force, and, therefore, part of why she succeeded?

I suppose it's possible. But that runs contrary to the explicit "Stop taking my hand" intent of Rey's character in the film.

That was just offered up as a possibility based on a book I read a long time ago.

I do stand by my theory of the Force has awakened everywhere though.

Someone hypothesized that the story of these films might be that the light and dark sides will need to work together to overcome a greater danger. I also like that idea. It would allow for an interesting evolution of the force where force users could exist that combine both sides of the force at once--kind of like the ending of that PIXAR movie from earlier this year.