The Chosen One worked well for three people in Babylon 5. The One who Was, Is, and Will Be.
Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far
- Thread starter JediKnightButler
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The Chosen One worked well for three people in Babylon 5. The One who Was, Is, and Will Be.
The concept of balance requires two, yet the balance itself is a singular thing.
Or: is there significance to the Father, Son and Daughter of Overlords, in parallel to Anakin, Luke and Leia? Are they setting something up longer term that we've been expecting?
But like I said, too many ideas, I want someone to confirm ONE idea onscreen, that makes sense, and is not open to absurd levels of interpretation that just makes the whole thing confusing and not satisfying.
Or: is there significance to the Father, Son and Daughter of Overlords, in parallel to Anakin, Luke and Leia? Are they setting something up longer term that we've been expecting?
But like I said, too many ideas, I want someone to confirm ONE idea onscreen, that makes sense, and is not open to absurd levels of interpretation that just makes the whole thing confusing and not satisfying.
Actually it is played in full glory at the end of Attack Of The Clones as the clones are marching onto their ships on Coruscant. There might even be hints of it earlier in AOTC or even snippits in TPM. Not sure about that, but I do know that it is woven into Anakin's theme in TPM.
But I agree, the music never lies.
If it's in TPM, then Anakin was doomed from the start! 
Seems pretty harsh that he never had a chance...then again TCW is pretty harsh if it's implying that Anakin doomed himself by refusing to stay on some dumb planet and babysit a couple of superpowered brats.
The poor guy already left his mother and his home to do the responsible thing and help save the frakkin' galaxy, and now that he's finally managed to carve out a reasonably happy life for himself, with maybe an overly liberal interpretation of those obnoxious and inhuman Jedi rules, he's supposed to give everything up again? There's only so much a guy can take.
There really does need to be a moment in which Anakin does something wrong to precipitate his own downfall, of his own free will, not because he is stupid, manipulated or crazy. Without that sense that he's a moral actor and is making an immoral choice, the Star Wars cosmos will seem very arbitrary and cruel, a place where good people will be condemned to terrible fates just because they were helpless in some way, or just got on the wrong side of a prophecy that's so vaguely worded, it could mean anything.
TCW has made him charming and likeble, which is great, but that means he's a decent guy in an impossible situation which is just getting worse. How the heck are they ever going to convincingly show him doing something beyond the pale? The way things are going, for him to flip out at the Jedi would be understandable.
Maybe that's their "solution." There never will be a point at which we lose sympathy for Anakin. Instead, the Star Wars cosmos is an arbitrary and cruel place where becoming a Sith can be the most sane reaction among all the options. The fault lies not in Anakin but in the stars.
Seems pretty harsh that he never had a chance...then again TCW is pretty harsh if it's implying that Anakin doomed himself by refusing to stay on some dumb planet and babysit a couple of superpowered brats. The poor guy already left his mother and his home to do the responsible thing and help save the frakkin' galaxy, and now that he's finally managed to carve out a reasonably happy life for himself, with maybe an overly liberal interpretation of those obnoxious and inhuman Jedi rules, he's supposed to give everything up again? There's only so much a guy can take.
There really does need to be a moment in which Anakin does something wrong to precipitate his own downfall, of his own free will, not because he is stupid, manipulated or crazy. Without that sense that he's a moral actor and is making an immoral choice, the Star Wars cosmos will seem very arbitrary and cruel, a place where good people will be condemned to terrible fates just because they were helpless in some way, or just got on the wrong side of a prophecy that's so vaguely worded, it could mean anything.
TCW has made him charming and likeble, which is great, but that means he's a decent guy in an impossible situation which is just getting worse. How the heck are they ever going to convincingly show him doing something beyond the pale? The way things are going, for him to flip out at the Jedi would be understandable.
Maybe that's their "solution." There never will be a point at which we lose sympathy for Anakin. Instead, the Star Wars cosmos is an arbitrary and cruel place where becoming a Sith can be the most sane reaction among all the options. The fault lies not in Anakin but in the stars.
So what brings balance to the force? Isn't it destroying the Sith?
Bringing balance to the Force is when Anakin stays on Force World and babysits the superpowered siblings.
Whether it's remotely fair of anyone to ask something like that of him - and then arrange to have him to go insane, be BBQed and shoved into a metal suit for the rest of his life when he refuses - is another matter entirely.
Whether it's remotely fair of anyone to ask something like that of him - and then arrange to have him to go insane, be BBQed and shoved into a metal suit for the rest of his life when he refuses - is another matter entirely.
It could've been destroying the Jedi. Heck, that would fit the classic model of a prophecy story, in which the characters misinterpret the meaning until it's too late -- the Jedi support Anakin because they believe "the balance of the Force" is something that will serve their interests, but it turns out to mean that he brings balance by killing all the Jedi save two, just as there are only two Sith.
Of course, the other leading theory is that he restores the balance decades later when he overthrows the Emperor. And now this episode is offering yet a third possible meaning. Maybe the prophecy means all of the above. Prophecies are always cryptic, so there's no reason a single prophecy couldn't be phrased so as to have, not just a hidden meaning, but multiple meanings. A Delphic triple entendre, as it were.
Again, you have to assume that any of this was planned. I see no reason to believe that the prophecy mess was caused by anything other than sloppiness and inattention. That certainly synchs best with Star Wars' track record to date.
Of the three options, the notion that Anakin fulfilled the prophecy by slaughtering the Jedi is the most fun to contemplate, but is also the least likely to be an interpretation we are intended to get out of the story. Lucas doesn't write with that level of irony, and although TCW is cool, I'm not seeing that kind of irony from it, either.
I'm interested in seeing where the TCW take on the prophecy nets out, but it already is raising a disturbing question: if Anakin refuses to go along with the prophecy, does he get punished for that? That seems very cruel. The Star Wars cosmos does need to maintain some sense of fairness and not descend into arbitrariness or nihilism.
Of the three options, the notion that Anakin fulfilled the prophecy by slaughtering the Jedi is the most fun to contemplate, but is also the least likely to be an interpretation we are intended to get out of the story. Lucas doesn't write with that level of irony, and although TCW is cool, I'm not seeing that kind of irony from it, either.
I'm interested in seeing where the TCW take on the prophecy nets out, but it already is raising a disturbing question: if Anakin refuses to go along with the prophecy, does he get punished for that? That seems very cruel. The Star Wars cosmos does need to maintain some sense of fairness and not descend into arbitrariness or nihilism.
I was speaking from an in-universe perspective, not a metatextual one.
I agree, it IS very classic in story telling to have the whole thing misunderstood, until a point of revelation, and then, there is understanding--which is generally very close to the end of the story.
But, again, the problem is, we KNOW the END, and so the more they keep adding to this prophecy, I feel, there is less and less understanding. The more they shine the light, the more confused I am. Well, not confused. More annoyed and convinced it was all that well thought out.
Is Anakin supposed to kill both the Jedi AND the Sith, so it brings about a new balance that doesn't have a Jedi and Sith in the equation? I don't know, because where the revelation and understanding would happen would be at the END of the story, which we've seen and we know there's no real enlightenment there.
I don't mind ambiguous prophecy in a story, but, when the climax happens and the guy fulfills the prophecy, THEN, I want to understand it.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
Do you understand what the word 'balance' means, Set Harth?
The jedi reigning supreme in the physical world is NOT 'balance' between opposites, good/evil; the jedi are unambiguous, near-simplistic good guys (much like the sith are unambiguous bad guys).
But the force is still taoist - says Lucas - because on a metaphysical plane that was never shown/never had any relevance the force is in balance when the jedi - good guys - have the advantage.
Lucas, in the PT, developed the force as taking the jedi/good's side and tried to make the force sound 'taoist' with a cheat - 'you see, on that other plane, the force is actually in balance between good/evil'
.You're the one who needs author commentary if you can't even see this, Set Harth.
The Chosen One Prophecy was something Lucas created to add additional importance to Anakin Skywalker for the prequel movies. There was nothing like it during the early drafts of his original Star Wars script.
Do you understand that balancing the Force doesn't mean whatever you want it to?
Do you understand that if you take the word Force out of a sentence and replace it with something else, you're talking about a different subject entirely?
Do you understand that you're rewriting Lucas' definition of balance of the Force into a nonsensical mess that has absolutely nothing to do with the balance foretold by the Jedi and is thus irrelevant?
Do you understand that words are not interchangeable?
Saul said:
The Sith are not the dark side.
Professor Zoom said:
No. After ROTJ the Jedi are "in the equation". The Jedi are not tantamount to the Sith.
The whole Father/Son/Daughter hanging out on a secluded "island" balancing the light and the dark is very reminiscent of the Mother/Jacob/Man in Black from LOST. And we know Lucas was a fan of the show...
The shoto saber made it's first appearance at the end of the Marvel run, back in the day:
Luke used it against Dark Lady Lumiya's Ferengi light whips.
Well, George did:
Whether or not he's changed his mind, or was simply unsuccessful in his attempt to portray this on screen is as yet undetermined.
The whole Father/Son/Daughter hanging out on a secluded "island" balancing the light and the dark is very reminiscent of the Mother/Jacob/Man in Black from LOST. And we know Lucas was a fan of the show...
Kind of, though Mother (and to a degree, Jacob) were unspeakably malevolent. The Man in Black was more of a force of nature just lashing out.
There is no in-universe explanation. There are competing explanations that don't mesh, so it's up to us to decide which one we prefer. I'm goin' with TCW.
We can also decide the lack of meshing is a sign that we haven't seen enough of the story to know what is going on, and something will come down the pike someday that will make it all click in a blinding blaze of canonicity. I'm not holding my breath.
Maybe we don't. Is ROTJ the end?
I Grok Spock: thanks for the quote, that is where I heard it. Lucas was probably just talking out his ass. It was a bad idea and if he decided to go with a better one, good.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
Do you understand the definition - dictionary definition - of the word/notion of 'balance' Set Harth?
You're the one who doesn't understand that words are not interchangeable - that 'balance' doesn't change its meaning just because Lucas would like it.
Taoist 'balance' (really, look the word up in a dictionary, Set Harth), does NOT mean good/jedi dominant in the physical plane (and a never seen metaphysical plane and whatever 'balance' is there does NOT change this); does not mean good dominant on any plane, any level.
Lucas has clearly repudiated that asinine notion that balance means imbalance on one side, anyway. TCW shows it. Everyone needs to keep up with the ever changing canon of Star Wars.
Is this a re-run?
You can't see the Force. Deal with it. You can't see deflector shields either a lot of the time, and yet you accept them.
Balance of the Force is still not automatically the same thing as the balance of any other quantity you can think of. You continue to ignore the "of the Force" part. It doesn't seem to concern you that your desired definition of "balance" is obviously inconsistent with TPM, meaning that it's not something the films even discussed.
I Grok Spock said:
It still says "doing away with the Sith", not the dark side. The dark side is a side of the Force, not a synonym for evil. In context the major evil of the universe that is done away with is Palpatine and the Empire. You don't remove the existence of evil itself without somehow negating free will and key aspects of human (sentient) nature. Lucas shows no indication of having changed his mind at all on this.
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Yeah, I see that. I was looking more at the "...getting rid of evil in the universe" part of the quote. Though I suppose this could be just a rhetorical flourish rather than an actual state of affairs. I would agree that when Vaderkin gives Palps the shaft, the Dark Side continues to exist. Its practitioners, however, do not.
From a storytelling perspective, I think Lucas sees those as one and the same. He's repeatedly said there is no story he is interested in telling after the credits roll on ROTJ. So evil is vanquished, the good guys party, fini.
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