Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far

[Christopher]

I think the prophecy is better suited to Luke's actions and the whole Anakin being the one was a mistake by the Jedi who believed he was the one based solely on the fact that he was stronger in the force than others.

Well, not necessarily. If it was Luke's actions that fulfilled the prophecy, then it could still be said that Anakin was destined to bring balance to the Force, because Anakin gave birth to Luke. He "brought" the person who restored that balance.

Anyway, I think it's kind of missing the point to argue about what the prophecy "really" meant as if there were an objectively right answer. If Lucas had had a specific, unambiguous meaning in mind, that probably would've been stated onscreen. Since it wasn't, the prophecy was probably meant to be ambiguous. (Though admittedly maybe that's giving Lucas too much credit as a writer.)

 

[Locutus of Bored]

'Overlords' was a fantastic episode, especially following on the heals of the excellent Nightsisters arc. I loved the more introspective change of pace from the war eps and the genuine sense of mystery and exploration. 'A+.' This is easily my favorite episode of the series yet. Here's hoping the remainder of the trilogy lives up to its example.

The planet was a cool mix of Pandora and the Genesis Planet. Anakin fully unleashing his power was amazing and the first time he's really fit the whole Chosen One image to me throughout the Prequels and Clone Wars.

 

[DarthPipes]

Agreed. It was awesome to see a real high-level display of the Force. Something Vader hinted at when he said the ability to destroy a planet was insignificant next to the power of the Force.

Anakin was the Chosen One because he destroyed Palpatine but Luke deserves a lot of credit. Without Luke, Anakin wouldn't have been able to see past his own darkness.

 

[O'Dib]

You know, I just realized that the Jedi may be proponents of balance because they do not, in fact, represent an extreme expression of the light side. Rarely is a light side even mentioned. They only speak of the Force. Consider, these are, after all, warrior monks. They have been known to deceive, threaten, even kill, to advance the cause of their civilization. Nature itself can seem cruel in its march of increasing complexity. The Sith are not so discriminating in their use of power, and by looking out for only themselves, unbalance the eco-system. The Jedi code may seem overly strict, but that is only because the Jedi are constantly tempted to misuse power for their own ends. If they were not forever standing on the precipice to the dark side, and instead lived somewhere off in the clouds, the Jedi order would not be the most valuable recruitment camp for the Sith.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

'Balance' of the force means the good guys are overwhelmingly dominant?

Only in Force-user circles under certain conditions.

That's not very taoist - taoism means dark/light - opposites - equilibrium in every respect, on every plane. In 'star wars', the balance claimed to exist on the metaphysical plane between the 'dark' and 'light' sides of the force does NOT translate to the physical realm, with only 'good' guys present.

That's a misrepresentation of what would be going on in the physical realm as a whole.

Set Harth, you obviously watched ROTJ. On the physical plane, the 'good' guys, jedi, etc WERE dominant, overwhelmingly so.
And, frankly, obscure EU facts have little relevance.

The force is in balance metaphysically when the good guys are dominant.
This is NOT taoist.

Both the jedi and the sith must want imbalance towards their side and fight for it; but, due to the other side, all that will ever be achieved is 'equilibrium'.

No, the Jedi want the Force to be balanced, and the Force is balanced at a point when the Sith are destroyed and the Jedi order lives on. This is all just the usual attempt to rewrite the balance of the Force as "Jedi/Sith head count". But it never meant that, in TPM ( when it was first introduced ) or at any other time.

Again, this is not taoist. Taoism is equilibrium on EVERY LEVEL, IN EVERY RESPECT, NOT 'the Sith are destroyed and the Jedi order lives on'.

 

[Set Harth]

By bringing balance to the force it might mean wiping out both the Jedi and Sith. Making things pretty even.

Wrong. It means wiping out the Sith while the Jedi order continues to exist, as demonstrated in ROTJ. The Jedi are not tantamount to the Sith. The Jedi tend to promote balance while the latter-day Sith tend to promote imbalance.

If Lucas had had a specific, unambiguous meaning in mind, that probably would've been stated onscreen.

My thoughts on this can be best summed up by an example of something Lucas should not have been expected to do: I'm envisioning a Las Vegas-style neon sign descending with flashing lights, confetti and showgirls coming out on stage, maybe with a few Ewoks thrown in for good measure, all doing the yub-yub dance.

In the PT, Lucas said that balancing the Force means wiping out the Dark Side. In the TCW, balancing the Force is balancing both the Light and Dark Sides. Lucas is still okaying everything in TCW, yet he doesn't see the contradiction?

There's no contradiction because Lucas never actually said that balancing the Force means wiping out the dark side. As usual TCW is merely creating hype for ratings while ultimately contradicting nothing fundamental.

And, frankly, obscure EU facts have little relevance.

Tell that to the imaginary people bringing obscure EU facts into the argument.

On the physical plane, the 'good' guys, jedi, etc WERE dominant, overwhelmingly so.

You said there were only good guys present. Not likely in any universe.

Again, this is not taoist. Taoism is equilibrium on EVERY LEVEL, IN EVERY RESPECT, NOT 'the Sith are destroyed and the Jedi order lives on'.

So in a "Taoist" universe you get de facto immortality by signing up for either the Jedi or the Sith, eh? Because no one can kill Jedi or Sith in a "Taoist" universe, for fear of there not being equal numbers of Jedi and Sith? And in fact there are equal numbers of everything in said universe, a standard which utterly defeats such things as logic and sanity? You're not describing anything Taoist at all. You're describing the "Waiting for Superman" universe.

Well, keep waiting.

Lucas' vision is sufficiently Taoist, and it does not include a necessity for equal numbers of Jedi and Sith ( the tired nonsensical misunderstanding of TPM ).

 

[Saul]

By bringing balance to the force it might mean wiping out both the Jedi and Sith. Making things pretty even.

Wrong. It means wiping out the Sith while the Jedi order continues to exist, as demonstrated in ROTJ. The Jedi are not tantamount to the Sith. The Jedi tend to promote balance while the latter-day Sith tend to promote imbalance.

But with the sith destroyed, the dark side of the force is no more. Surely an imbalance following how the constant battle between light and dark is shown in "overlords".

 

[PepeWan]

So was Obi-Wan the only one who didn't receive a visit from the Son? The Qui-Gon ghost was presented differently from the other two...who seemed to actually be in the room (albeit a little transparent). Obi-Wan saw the actual, authentic, Qui-Gon, but after comparing notes with Anakin and Ahsoka, did he write it off as another of the Son's illusions? And does this preserve the (apparent) surprise he feels in ROTS when Yoda reveals that he too has been visited by Qui-Gon?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

On the physical plane, the 'good' guys, jedi, etc WERE dominant, overwhelmingly so.

You said there were only good guys present. Not likely in any universe.

Overwhelmingly dominant is good enough for it NOT to be balance.

Again, this is not taoist. Taoism is equilibrium on EVERY LEVEL, IN EVERY RESPECT, NOT 'the Sith are destroyed and the Jedi order lives on'.

So in a "Taoist" universe you get de facto immortality by signing up for either the Jedi or the Sith, eh? Because no one can kill Jedi or Sith in a "Taoist" universe, for fear of there not being equal numbers of Jedi and Sith? And in fact there are equal numbers of everything in said universe, a standard which utterly defeats such things as logic and sanity? You're not describing anything Taoist at all. You're describing the "Waiting for Superman" universe.

Well, keep waiting.

Lucas' vision is sufficiently Taoist, and it does not include a necessity for equal numbers of Jedi and Sith ( the tired nonsensical misunderstanding of TPM ).

Equal numbers for balance?
No.
But there has to be something resembling an equilibrium between the sith and the jedi - between their power, their influence.
All jedi and no sith (as per ROTJ) is NOT even close to an equilibrium.

Lucas can claim all he wants that the force is in dark/light equilibrium on some metaphysical plane that, ultimately, is irrelevant - unseen, unfelt.
What matters for the story is that in the seen physical plane 'equilibriumm' is a misnomer for 'the jedi are clearly dominant'. What ultimately matters for the story is that this is NOT even close to a taoist balance.

Lucas did not describe the force as taoist (equilibrium its natural state) - he just said it is so in some never shown neverneverland.
He actually described - showed - the force's natural state as 'the jedi have the power'.

 

[Professor Zoom]

This confusion of what the prophecy means is a result of coming up with the prophecy (TPM) after we've already seen it fulfilled (ROTJ).

 

[Christopher]

So was Obi-Wan the only one who didn't receive a visit from the Son? The Qui-Gon ghost was presented differently from the other two...who seemed to actually be in the room (albeit a little transparent). Obi-Wan saw the actual, authentic, Qui-Gon, but after comparing notes with Anakin and Ahsoka, did he write it off as another of the Son's illusions? And does this preserve the (apparent) surprise he feels in ROTS when Yoda reveals that he too has been visited by Qui-Gon?

Was it the Son who appeared as Future Ahsoka? Given the episode's theme of symmetry between light and dark (right down to a modified yin-and-yang design on the arena floor), I would've thought that the Son would visit Anakin and the Daughter would visit Ahsoka.

This confusion of what the prophecy means is a result of coming up with the prophecy (TPM) after we've already seen it fulfilled (ROTJ).

Maybe, but what puzzles me is why anyone here would expect a prophecy not to be confusing. I mean, that's the whole deal with prophecies: they're cryptic and ambiguous. Stories about prophecies usually rely on the characters misunderstanding the prophecies until it's too late, because if the meaning were crystal-clear, there'd be no suspense. And even after it's too late, a lot of stories still treat the prophecies as ambiguous in that you're not sure how much of the outcome was destiny and how much was free will or chance. So it seems very odd to me that some people here are insisting there has to be a single, simple, unambiguous explanation for the meaning of a prophecy of all things. Let alone that people are arguing with each other over it.

 

[Professor Zoom]

This confusion of what the prophecy means is a result of coming up with the prophecy (TPM) after we've already seen it fulfilled (ROTJ).

Maybe, but what puzzles me is why anyone here would expect a prophecy not to be confusing. I mean, that's the whole deal with prophecies: they're cryptic and ambiguous. Stories about prophecies usually rely on the characters misunderstanding the prophecies until it's too late, because if the meaning were crystal-clear, there'd be no suspense. And even after it's too late, a lot of stories still treat the prophecies as ambiguous in that you're not sure how much of the outcome was destiny and how much was free will or chance. So it seems very odd to me that some people here are insisting there has to be a single, simple, unambiguous explanation for the meaning of a prophecy of all things. Let alone that people are arguing with each other over it.

Oh, I agree, a prophecy shouldn't be crystal clear at the beginning... it generally leads to a boring climax if it comes true exactly as stated (I'm looking at you Tim Burton's Alice in Wonderland).

But, I think AFTER a prophecy is met, the understanding should be clear... in a surprising, yet satisfying way (like in Babylon 5).

That's my point. We have a crystal clear end--Anakin chucking the Emperor down a shaft, but we have a prophecy, written AFTER, that doesn't seem to connect with what we have seen or feel surprising, yet satisfying.

I feel like it's murky so Lucas has wiggle room to say whatever he wants, and that's not particularly satisfying.

I would rather there have been no Chosen One stuff and everyone just amazed at how powerful Anakin is, a Destiny wide open.

 

[Set Harth]

But with the sith destroyed, the dark side of the force is no more.

No, the Sith are not the dark side.

Overwhelmingly dominant is good enough for it NOT to be balance.

Aside from that still being a mischaracterization of the galaxy in general, Lucas says otherwise. Which probably has to do with the fact that "balance of the Force" is still being treated as an issue of head count. Taking words out of a phrase and replacing them with different words would tend to change the meaning of the phrase.

But there has to be something resembling an equilibrium between the sith and the jedi - between their power, their influence.

Wrong. If that were the case the Jedi would not look forward to a hero of prophecy balancing the Force as a positive outcome from their POV. They would seek to avoid it. You are redefining balance of the Force from the meaning indicated by the PT. You continue to insist that the balance of the Force must in fact be a balance of other things, simply because the word "balance" is used, but language doesn't work that way. Words are not interchangeable.

What matters for the story is that in the seen physical plane 'equilibriumm' is a misnomer for 'the jedi are clearly dominant'.

The Jedi are not the light side.

Lucas did not describe the force as taoist (equilibrium its natural state) - he just said it is so in some never shown neverneverland.

Too bad he can't break into the flow of the story and explain it to you. You'll find that most films suffer from this lack of in-film author commentary.

 

[Christopher]

I feel like it's murky so Lucas has wiggle room to say whatever he wants, and that's not particularly satisfying.

I disagree. It can be very satisfying if a storyteller deliberately leaves something ambiguous enough that the individual can decide for oneself what it means, rather than simply being told what it means. Like the ending of Inception. It's supposed to be ambiguous. It's supposed to be left to us to form our own conclusions about what it means. You can choose whatever explanation satisfies you the most. If you were simply handed an unambiguous answer, it might be one you found unsatisfying.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I wouldn't call it yellow. More of a lime-saber.

Chartreuse. Looks cool for her to have two sabers, one long and one short. Funny how you have to be careful about color coordination. Wouldn't want green and red for instance, that's Christmas! Green and purple: ech, preppy. Red and purple would clash. And then there are also the ideological concerns.

Anyway, I think it's kind of missing the point to argue about what the prophecy "really" meant as if there were an objectively right answer. If Lucas had had a specific, unambiguous meaning in mind, that probably would've been stated onscreen. Since it wasn't, the prophecy was probably meant to be ambiguous. (Though admittedly maybe that's giving Lucas too much credit as a writer.)

I have the distinct impression that the PT said pretty unambiguously that balancing the Force = wiping out the Dark Side. I remember this because I thought it was hogwash! That's a Westernized notion of the battle between good and evil, and Taoism is so much cooler! So did I get that idea from fan discussions after the fact? I can't remember where I heard what about anything.

Anakin fully unleashing his power was amazing and the first time he's really fit the whole Chosen One image to me throughout the Prequels and Clone Wars.

Absolutely! In fact, I was thinking, whoah, I'm not sure I can believe Vader was ever that powerful. He's downright godlike. So we've gone from the PT where Anakin seemed too much like a pathetic weakling to synch with Vader, to someone who if anything is overshooting the mark! However, I'd much rather have him overshoot the mark. We can assume that being crippled on Mustafar ratcheted down his power a bit.

If they were not forever standing on the precipice to the dark side, and instead lived somewhere off in the clouds, the Jedi order would not be the most valuable recruitment camp for the Sith.

It's probably an unintentional irony but I've also noticed that the Jedi are asking for trouble by declaring that attachments will lead to the Dark Side and then sending their people into battle. Fighting alongside others is a surefire way to form deep bonds. If you're serious about no attachments, send your people to go live in monasteries and gender segregate them for good measure. Don't mix with normal people and above all, don't send your people into battle!!!

Stories about prophecies usually rely on the characters misunderstanding the prophecies until it's too late, because if the meaning were crystal-clear, there'd be no suspense.

That would be a great way to handle it - the Jedi can't really understand the Force or accept that balance means that the Sith need to exist, and they'll never wipe them out entirely - so they misinterpret the prophecy to mean "Anakin will wipe out the Sith, hurray!" when it actually means "Anakin will help the Sith become more powerful to balance the Jedi" (and maybe "and then Luke will rebalance things when the Sith become too powerful, and then and then and then because this never ends and if you think it's going to end, you don't understand what 'balance' means.")

But is this the case? The question is not so much What is the prophecy as What is the purpose of the prophecy in the story?

It can be very satisfying if a storyteller deliberately leaves something ambiguous enough that the individual can decide for oneself what it means, rather than simply being told what it means.

If you think that that ambiguity is a deliberate function of good writing rather than an accidental artifact of sloppy, lazy writing.

 

[Professor Zoom]

I feel like it's murky so Lucas has wiggle room to say whatever he wants, and that's not particularly satisfying.

I disagree. It can be very satisfying if a storyteller deliberately leaves something ambiguous enough that the individual can decide for oneself what it means, rather than simply being told what it means. Like the ending of Inception. It's supposed to be ambiguous. It's supposed to be left to us to form our own conclusions about what it means. You can choose whatever explanation satisfies you the most. If you were simply handed an unambiguous answer, it might be one you found unsatisfying.

It CAN be. Almost anything in storytelling CAN be true. But, I think when you get to specifics, it's not ALWAYS true. For me, I found the prophecy in Star Wars unsatisfying.

As far as your example, an ambiguous ending is different than ambiguous prophecy. Can you think of a different example?

For me, an ambiguous prophecy going forward is interesting. Unlike the unambiguous prophecy (like in Alice in Wonderland--you're gonna fight the Jabberwocky, and oddly, she does exactly how the prophecy is stated--boring.) Unlike B5, where it's ambiguous, but then more clear at the end.

However, this is a situation that's different. We have the CULMINATION of the prophecy (in ROTJ, according to Lucas) before we have the REVEAL of the prophecy. So, as an audience we are putting the two side by side, the result and the prophecy, and for some there is a dissonance. A dissonance that is being reworked in CW and EU stuff.

 

[Set Harth]

I have the distinct impression that the PT said pretty unambiguously that balancing the Force = wiping out the Dark Side.

It didn't.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Has anyone ever considered, that Anakin AND Luke are part of the prophecy?
I know it speaks of a chosen ONE, but they are the same flesh and blood after all.
A Jedi and a Sith, together they bring balance.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Has anyone ever considered, that Anakin AND Luke are part of the prophecy?
I know it speaks of a chosen ONE, but they are the same flesh and blood after all.
A Jedi and a Sith, together they bring balance.

That's also a nice idea. The problem is, we've got lots of ideas but no way to tell if they are right, or if there's a right answer to be had.

I don't think the OT and PT help with the prophecy. They just skim over it (the OT of course doesn't mention it).

TCW seems to be written with more detailed thought, so that's where I'm paying attention. So far, the clear answer about the prophecy is: Anakin was supposed to stay on the Force World and take over for the Father. Note how when he leaves at the end of Overlords, we hear a snippet of the Imperial March - chronologically the first time we hear Vader's theme, right? - which tells me that that was the moment where he made the wrong choice that led to the fall. Everything else unfurls because of that.

Which means that this wasn't a misinterpretation of the prophecy - it objectively was the thing Anakin was supposed to do, not that Luke was supposed to do it instead, years later, or anything like that. If there's one thing I know about Star Wars, it's that the single most important element is the MUSIC. The music never lies.

And on that point, TCW is doing a wonderful job re-weaving John William's themes into new forms to keep the musical score fresh and interesting, yet also grounded in tradition. Even when they're bringing in new stuff (Andean flute music etc) it still sounds like Star Wars. In Overlords, every so often I would hear that theme, I think it's called Fate or Destiny, you know the one I mean. Very subtle and cool.

 

[Set Harth]

I know it speaks of a chosen ONE

If it said Chosen TWO you'd be in business.

So far, the clear answer about the prophecy is: Anakin was supposed to stay on the Force World and take over for the Father.

And not fulfill the Chosen One's destiny ( ROTJ version ) in the galaxy at large?