Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far

[Set Harth]

Having difficulty coming up with coherent arguments?

Not at all, it's still right there, within easy reach of a scroll bar. You just don't "give a flying frak" about any of TCW's many screwups. That's where the lack of a coherent argument comes in, unless one dwells in a universe where "I don't give a frak" is a coherent argument. Having difficulty being objective about the latest so-called "improvement" over the PT?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Set Harth
Writing-wise, Clone Wars is a vast improvement over the Prequel Trilogy.
This is obvious due to the fact that the Prequel Trilogy writing is not only overly simplistic, but also full of contradictions. And, the more you analyse the Prequel trilogy, the more contradictions you find.

 

[DarKush]

I enjoyed last night's episode, though I did have some quibbles. Like others, it doesn't make much sense that the Republic would pay for electricity or water to all of its citizens, though I guess I can chalk it up to being a kind of futuristic economics like Trek's moneyless Federation. A more sensible sacrifice borne by the member worlds could've been the non-Clone soldiers dying, innocents caught in the crossfire, and the shifting of vital resources and funds to the war effort across the galaxy.

I didn't get why the Senators didn't have security, or even more aides around them. Especially after there had been 20 attacks. Where were the Jedi? I doubt they wouldn't know about 20 attacks or not want to step in to provide security. Also, I don't get the sense that there was an active manhunt for these attackers. Since it appears they left all their victims alive its a good bet that some of the victims so them and could give a description.

Regarding Padme's speech, I'm glad that it did the trick and that it was a small victory. However, I thought it odd that she wouldn't mention Bail Organa or the fact that he had been attacked, probably to prevent him giving the speech, and for his opposition to the banking bill. Since he was well respected among the Senate, seemed like that could've been a way to definitely soften hearts more so than Padme's mention of her aide/servant who those senators probably didn't know or would even acknowledge. Though I am glad that Padme did mention her, but throwing Bail in there too would've made for a more powerful speech.

Ultimately what I did like was how this episode and this show are filling in some of the blanks and giving characters opportunities for growth that they didn't get in the prequel films.

 

[DarKush]

The situation, as described in Clone Wars, gives palpatine control over the Republic Senate and the clones, but relatively little influence over the Separatist 'Senate'.

The question is - after he turned the Republic into an Empire and killed all the Jedi, how did he have the means to turn off all the droids, how did he know where the separatist leaders are?
Were the separatists stupid enough to put their entire army under the complete control of Grievous, who gave the control codes to Dooku/Palpatine? Stupid enough to inform Palpatine of their unguarded whereabouts?

The separatists had no reason to stop fighting an empire that evolved out of a corrupted republic they left. Indeed, this development would only motivate them more.

With the Separatists I think you've got a lot of different motivations there. I'm starting to wonder if the Trade Federation, Banking Clan, and those other oligarchs really want to leave the Republic, or are merely fighting the war to generate tons of profits. A weakened, divided Republic might make it easier for them to have even greater influence and they could perhaps service both sides with weapons, etc.

Now, I think among many of the other rebellious worlds, they really believe in their cause and that the Republic is corrupt. It might be too much to ask from this show, but I would love to see an episode that delves a bit more into the Separatists and how there might be different goals among them.

I wonder what would've happened if they actually won. Perhaps their coalition would've just kept splintering.

 

[fett51]

How did the Sith arise in the first place if the Force could just eliminate them so casually?

Exactly. If the force has a will and its will is to off the Sith, it has to be a weak will, one incapable of even getting Mace Windu to kill Palpatine before Anakin showed up and ruined everything. Qui-gon talking about finding Anakin like it's destiny runs completely counter to that weakness - it took quite an elaborate set of circumstances to get Qui-gon to Tatooine, nevermind Mos Espa (Wow, I just realized Ric Olie doomed the entire Jedi order).

Let's not forget that it was often a user of the Force who kept Anakin ( and others ) safe, rather than the Force itself.

Except when it wasn't, like Leia pretty much her entire life or Anakin as a child slave.

this series is going places Lucas would never dream of

Lucas is involved in the production of every episode. If he didn't want this happening, it wouldn't be.

Like the writers acting as if the word "separatist" means absolutely nothing and not figuring out that "peace with the Republic" from the separatist POV means the Republic losing the war and voluntarily giving up half its territory.

Back in AotC Dooku wasn't talking separation, he was talking revolution. He told Padme the Republic couldn't be fixed and it was time to start over, and he told the corporations they'd use their droid army to kill the Jedi and force the Republic to do what they wanted.

As for the IBC, it's implied they have a monopoly on large loans. They can play both sides because both sides are afraid of being cutting off.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Set Harth
Writing-wise, Clone Wars is a vast improvement over the Prequel Trilogy.
This is obvious due to the fact that the Prequel Trilogy writing is not only overly simplistic, but also full of contradictions. And, the more you analyse the Prequel trilogy, the more contradictions you find.

Yeah it's all so obvious to us, but I guess it's cute that the PT has one persistent defender among the countless billions across the galaxy who consider it junk.

TCW is doing a heroic job of fixing the problems from the PT that are within its ability to fix. We can't ask for more than that.

 

[DarthPipes]

Yeah, there's some definite logic problems in the script. Five million new clones will bankrupt The Republic but apparently providing health care, as well as electricity and water for trillions and trillions of citizens around the galaxy won't.

Not to mention the fact that The Republic has member worlds that are openly providing loans for the Seperatists so they can build more droids. How the hell is that even allowed? Stupid.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

With the Separatists I think you've got a lot of different motivations there. I'm starting to wonder if the Trade Federation, Banking Clan, and those other oligarchs really want to leave the Republic, or are merely fighting the war to generate tons of profits.

I think that could very well be the case. The Separatists started the party with a legitimate grievance against an obviously corrupt and dysfunctional Republic. Then came the opportunists: the banking/trade people jumped on for financial reasons and the Sith jumped on to use the whole mess to leverage their way into power.

And that sequence of events makes perfect sense - because if smart people in the Senate and the Jedi Order recognize that the Separatists originally had a point, they wouldn't be suspicious that the war is being trumped up by nefarious forces that they should be tracking down instead of spending all their time fighting a war they shouldn't be fighting to begin with.

Now, I think among many of the other rebellious worlds, they really believe in their cause and that the Republic is corrupt. It might be too much to ask from this show, but I would love to see an episode that delves a bit more into the Separatists and how there might be different goals among them.

I don't think that's too much to ask, and since the writers have gotten this ball rolling, I expect a lot more development along those lines. The political dimensions behind the war have suddenly gotten interesting, and they have writers on staff who can handle those types of stories.

I'd like to see a nice balance between battle stories; personal stories (especially focusing on Anakin and Ahsoka, separately or together); political stories (often focusing on Padme, and of the Jedi, Obi-Wan should be the first to come over to her side); and the element still missing, stories about the metaphysical conflict between the Jedi and Sith, of which lightsaber battles are one facet but not the only facet. Put all that together, and you've got the makings of a terrific series!

I wonder what would've happened if they actually won. Perhaps their coalition would've just kept splintering

I'm wondering whether there should be a Republic at all. Why organize all the worlds into one centralized political system, when you could do it loosely, like the UN? The various worlds are culturally distinct (since they are populated by different species, they would have to be), and I can't really see them constituting one coherent "nation."

If the Republic is capable of becoming an oppressive Empire, then the essential problem is that the Republic has too much power in relation to the amount of caring and oversight that people are willing to put into it - to keep a democracy from going bad, you need motivated people who give a damn who can counteract the selfish and evil forces that will always be trying to tear it down.

Not to mention the fact that The Republic has member worlds that are openly providing loans for the Seperatists so they can build more droids. How the hell is that even allowed? Stupid.

That's what I mean by lack of caring and oversight. Too few of the Senators, and probably too few of the people they represent, are willing to put up a fight to stop shit like that. So if they won't care, then the Republic should be formed to have much less power. I don't think that's a plot hole but rather a plot point: it's underscoring the motivation of the Separatists and making the story more plausible overall. The Republic is worse off than I suspected.

 

[fett51]

Not to mention the fact that The Republic has member worlds that are openly providing loans for the Seperatists so they can build more droids. How the hell is that even allowed? Stupid.

From the dialogue between Padme and Burtoni in the beginning of the episode, the banking clan has a monopoly on large loans. That's why they can get away with playing both sides.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Lucas is involved in the production of every episode. If he didn't want this happening, it wouldn't be.

I have the feeling this may be the story he was trying to tell in the PT, and just didn't manage to. Just because you want to do something doesn't mean you know how to succeed. He just needed what he has now: some good writers to collaborate with, who know how to take his ideas and actually make them work onscreen.

Maybe he always envisioned the Separatists having legitimate grievances and the Republic being unsalvageably rotten, and structured more like the UN than a single nation in terms of how people felt about it and their willingness to fight for it, not to mention Anakin being heroic, charming and likable rather than a surly stalker punk, but he just didn't find a way to convey these ideas until now. Better late than never!

 

[DarthPipes]

Yeah, Lucas is involved in every episode. Though Filoni and his team have a lot of control over how things play out.

 

[lennier1]

Writing-wise, Clone Wars is a vast improvement over the Prequel Trilogy.

Isn't that like saying something is more sophisticated than a talk show?

 

[ALF]

Well I've been enjoying there series immensely so far. But the last episode sort of rubbed me the wrong way. And it wasn't that it was political intrigue with a lack of jedi action (there's plenty to go around in other episodes) it was two scenes specifically that were cut short.

The way those scenes were cut short sort of seemed a cop-out to me.

If these recent episodes are meant to cast light on the big picture of a republic crumbling from the inside... then I want to see actual reactions from the big players involved.

1. Padme escapes on a speeder and is stopped by police. She shouts to the authority figures that the assassin is making his getaway, but the robo-cops tell her to put her hands up. Scene ends. Why did we not see Padme put her hands up? Why not detail some of that aftermath? Scene change to Padme's apartment. I wanted to see Padme in handcuffs explaining the situation because I think those images would have carried a lot of weight. Padme is the hero of this episode and I wanted to see her frustration a bit more played out in detail. They ended the scene the moment they told her to put her hands up. Why? In my mind it seemed a wasted opportunity.

2. When Padme makes her speech (oh my, there's a special place in sci-fi for a climax that involves a long speech. Somewhere Captain Picard must be so proud!) she turns the tables in the senate. And yet we don't see the public reaction of Palpatine. Again, this sort of seemed like a cop out to me. We see Palps afterward, speaking with his aide but we don't see how he reacted to Padme's speech publicly, or what he said in response to it.

Anyway.... just my two bits.

 

[Set Harth]

Back in AotC Dooku wasn't talking separation, he was talking revolution.

Potato, potatto.

What Palpatine ( and Dooku ) said in AOTC still stands regardless of what you call it.

If the force has a will and its will is to off the Sith, it has to be a weak will, one incapable of even getting Mace Windu to kill Palpatine before Anakin showed up and ruined everything. Qui-gon talking about finding Anakin like it's destiny runs completely counter to that weakness

Not at all. It's encapsulated by Obi-Wan's description of things in ANH. That wasn't seen as a contradiction or a dichotomy then, I don't see why it should be seen as such now.

Except when it wasn't, like Leia pretty much her entire life or Anakin as a child slave.

And you know this how, other than by assumption?

I guess it's cute that the PT has one persistent defender

I confess, all the people posting complaints about TCW are socks of me.
( Or past incarnations allowed to exist here only due to rifts in the multiverse. )

 

[fett51]

What Palpatine ( and Dooku ) said in AOTC still stands regardless of what you call it.

What Dooku said to the corps was they were going to kill the Jedi and force the Republic to give them whatever they want. That's not just separating.

And you know this how, other than by assumption?

Well, I noticed a rather distinct lack of force users babysitting Anakin and Leia, what with nobody knowing Anakin existed and all the force users in the time before Leia's mission to Tatooine being either being in hiding, dead, or unaware of her existence.

Not at all. It's encapsulated by Obi-Wan's description of things in ANH. That wasn't seen as a contradiction or a dichotomy then, I don't see why it should be seen as such now.

All I recall Obi-wan saying about the will of the force in ANH was that it both obeyed commands and directed one's actions. It had to do an awful lot of directing to get Qui-gon to Anakin, for starters manipulate a bunch of droids and Neimodians into damaging padme's ship just enough to screw up the hyperdrive, and then R2 to get the shields back up in time to keep them all from exploding, and then get Ric Olie to bring them into Tatooine so the closest settlement was Mos Espa. If it can do all that, why such a circuitous route to get rid Palps?

 

[Set Harth]

What Dooku said to the corps was they were going to kill the Jedi and force the Republic to give them whatever they want. That's not just separating.

Unless what they want is to separate.

Well, I noticed a rather distinct lack of force users babysitting Anakin and Leia, what with nobody knowing Anakin existed and all the force users in the time before Leia's mission to Tatooine being either being in hiding, dead, or unaware of her existence.

That's what I thought.

I recall Obi-wan saying about the will of the force in ANH was that it both obeyed commands and directed one's actions.

Partially.

and then R2 to get the shields back up in time to keep them all from exploding

Even though they didn't get hit again after that point.

If it can do all that, why such a circuitous route to get rid Palps?

If it was so easy to get rid of Palpatine, there never would have been a Sith order in the first place.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

The force was depicted inconsistently in the movies.

In the OT the force was taoist in nature, it was all about equilibrium, with a dark and light side.
Joda used the light side, Palpatine the dark side. The 'will of the force' was not exclusively light nor exclusively dark, but encompassed both.

Then came PT and the 'balance of the force' prophecy. Lucas saw too late that only idiot jedi would want light/dark equilibrium when they, the light, were dominant.
So the force was retconed: the force is only 'light'.
And somehow, this near-omnipotent force with its 'light' will can not keep itself from being used by sith - let alone stop the sith from destroying the jedi or anything like that.

 

[Set Harth]

In the OT the force was taoist in nature, it was all about equilibrium, with a dark and light side. Yoda used the light side, Palpatine the dark side.

Nothing in the above was changed by the PT.

The 'will of the force' was not exclusively light nor exclusively dark, but encompassed both.

The term "will of the Force" never appeared in the OT era. It was first mentioned in TPM.

So the force was retconed: the force is only 'light'.

That didn't happen in the PT, nor is it supported by Lucas. You may be thinking of a certain revisionist author, but other authors seem to disagree.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

So the force was retconed: the force is only 'light'.

That didn't happen in the PT, nor is it supported by Lucas. You may be thinking of a certain revisionist author, but other authors disagree.

Either the force was retconed in being only 'light' or the PT jedi were suicidal idiots.

 

[Set Harth]

Or the supposed Force retcon never happened, and it's just wishful thinking masquerading as fact.