Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far
- Thread starter JediKnightButler
- Start date
We don't have to buy that our universe is Manichaean, only that the Star Wars universe is. If you don't like the implications for our universe, don't think of it as our universe. Think of it as a big what-if scenario.
That's not one side vs another, that's balance vs imbalance. So where did the "side" terminology come from? Inaccurate and confusing. It should have been Order vs Chaos rather than Light Side vs Dark Side.
Scratched the surface, but at least it's a start. Here's a fun thing to contemplate: by reducing funding for clones, Padme is causing thousands or millions never to be born. Isn't that worse than having them be born into a life that maybe they don't have many choices about, but seem pretty well adapted to? The clones we've seen take pride in their soliderly abilities and enjoy the cameraderie of other clones. They can even make the choice to defect from the military on rare occasions. They seem happy and have a purpose. That's far from being a deplorable life.
It's nice that Padme is worried about the impact of the war on the little guy, but so far she's missing the big picture: if her smart and reasonable friend is in the Separatists, then the Separatists have valid concerns, and until they are addressed, the war will continue. At the very least, coming to terms with the reasonable, non-corrupt (and non-Sith) Seppys should drain their resolve and fracture their coalition.
If the Seppys are mad that the Republic is a corrupt mess, then guess what - they are right!!! And that is the big speech Padme should be making: the Republic needs to stop fighting and start cleaning up its own nasty, corrupt house. The way this story is moving, that might be what the next episode is about.
It's perfectly possible that the Republic is simply unsalvageable. What would be so horrible about just letting the Separatists go, and reforming the Republic around a core of loyal worlds that promise to be reasonable non-corrupt? Maybe the problem is that the Republic is so large that the government can't help but be out of touch with the common folk, and the solution is for the Republic to be smaller. That would be a great plot twist since it would upset Palps' entire game plan!
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^Actually the next episodes are the ones with the Nightsisters, and Savage Opress. So it looks like we should be getting back into the action heavy stuff with lots of Force user vs. Force user action.
Edit: Here's a trailer.
Edit: Here's a trailer.
in what sense, then?
Temis the Vorta said:
Life as a happy slave better than no life at all? Maybe for them, but ethically it's not quite that simple - have to consider what effects those lives are likely to have on everyone else. From Padme's POV, they would be prolonging an unnecessary war, causing immeasurable suffering and needless death on a massive scale in the process. The price for bringing them into the world from her POV is intolerably high.
TCW nominated for a buncha animation awards, including Daniel Arkin for "Heroes on Both Sides" (I think he might have written "Pursuit of Peace" too). Good, I hope this encourages more episodes of that quality.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
So - a gazillion jedi and 2 sith means the dark side is 'dominant'?
That makes sense - not.You actually want to posit that the force's light or dark side is 'dominant' at a specific time 'just because' - no connnection with how the force is used in the SW universe -, that is, because otherwise you will have to come to terms with the fact that the 'equilibrium prophecy' was poorly thought out, put in the PT because it sounded cool?
Being a convoluted fan theory that takes a few lines from the movies out of context and throws all common sense out the window does not equal 'is right there in the AOTC', Set Harth.
You know how you can tell your fan theory is convoluted, Set Harth? By the fact that you'll have to spend half a page to make it sound somehwat plausible. And all your rhetoric still won't get pass the fact that you invent out of thin air arbitrary rules about how the force functions.
So - a gazillion jedi and 2 sith means the dark side is 'dominant'?
It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them. Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in Darkness.
What doesn't make sense is your fan fiction rewrite of the meaning of balance of the Force, throwing out the meaning established by the films. It's not balance of the organizations. If it were, it would not be a goal the Jedi would hope for, as they do in the films. They don't want there to be a Sith for every Jedi. That is retarded.
No, I have evidence from the films and scripts, while you have no actual evidence for the light side being dominant - just a non-argument apparently based on conflation of a side of the Force with an organization. Don't project your own feeble attempts to rewrite the thing into a nonsensical mess while blaming Lucas for your mistake.
Read more carefully. I said it was right there in the AOTC script. You can't negate the evidence in the films by the "out of context" ploy. "Out of context" just means you're ignoring the fact that the dialogue contradicts your misrepresentations.
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ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
Set Harth
Sounds like Lucas retconed the force as being only 'light' in PT movie 3, after in movie 2, he introduced the jedi seeking to 'bring balance'.
Of course, the force is only 'light' retcon comes with its own issues - so, the all-powerful, light force can't stop mere sentients from perverting it, turning it 'dark'.
I guess Lucas should have actually thought out the 'bring balance' prophecy instead of introducing it because it sounded cool.
That makes sense - not.
You actually want to posit that the force's light or dark side is 'dominant' at a specific time 'just because' - no connnection with how the force is used in the SW universe -, that is, because otherwise you will have to come to terms with the fact that the 'equilibrium prophecy' was poorly thought out, put in the PT because it sounded cool?
Being a convoluted fan theory that takes a few lines from the movies out of context and throws all common sense out the window does not equal 'is right there in the AOTC', Set Harth.
You know how you can tell your fan theory is convoluted, Set Harth? By the fact that you'll have to spend half a page to make it sound somehwat plausible. And all your rhetoric still won't get pass the fact that you invent out of thin air arbitrary rules about how the force functions.'
I see you can't even think up a convoluted theory. All you can do is come up with feeble attempts at condescension - which only highlights your lack of arguments.
So - 'balance', as per this quote, means all the sith are dead AKA the force, when balanced, is only 'light' AKA the force is only 'light'.
Sounds like Lucas retconed the force as being only 'light' in PT movie 3, after in movie 2, he introduced the jedi seeking to 'bring balance'.
Of course, the force is only 'light' retcon comes with its own issues - so, the all-powerful, light force can't stop mere sentients from perverting it, turning it 'dark'.
I guess Lucas should have actually thought out the 'bring balance' prophecy instead of introducing it because it sounded cool.
As said - 'So - a gazillion jedi and 2 sith means the dark side is 'dominant'?
That makes sense - not.You actually want to posit that the force's light or dark side is 'dominant' at a specific time 'just because' - no connnection with how the force is used in the SW universe -, that is, because otherwise you will have to come to terms with the fact that the 'equilibrium prophecy' was poorly thought out, put in the PT because it sounded cool?
Being a convoluted fan theory that takes a few lines from the movies out of context and throws all common sense out the window does not equal 'is right there in the AOTC', Set Harth.
You know how you can tell your fan theory is convoluted, Set Harth? By the fact that you'll have to spend half a page to make it sound somehwat plausible. And all your rhetoric still won't get pass the fact that you invent out of thin air arbitrary rules about how the force functions.'
I see you can't even think up a convoluted theory. All you can do is come up with feeble attempts at condescension - which only highlights your lack of arguments.
Yes, it is, Set Harth. As I already said - 'Either the force was retconed in being only 'light' or the PT jedi were suicidal idiots.'
How do you get from "the Sith are dead" to "the Force is only light"? That's right - by getting a side of the Force confused with a group. Again. But I guess you'll need to continue ignoring this contradiction of your mistaken premise.
Get your facts straight. That was in "movie 1".
In your fantasy world anything is possible.
Then it's a good thing Lucas never took part in it. It's wishful revisionism and the real retconners only attach Lucas' name to it in a desperate ploy for credibility.
( Or, in the case of a certain author, to avoid having to admit a mistake. )
It's not Lucas who says the Jedi were suicidal, it's your own confused nonsense.
The films say "balance of the Force", but you insist on "balance of the groups", which isn't a part of the films. In the films the supposedly "suicidal" Jedi ( like Obi-Wan ) defend themselves when attacked and even sometimes kill the attacker... isn't that strange? It's amusing to watch you rewrite the plot into a nonsensical mess while simultaneously claiming that Lucas is responsible for your own teabagging.
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^Uhh, you two seem to be having an argument that's got nothing to do with the 3rd-season episodes of The Clone Wars but is instead about more general SW-universe issues, so maybe you should start a separate thread for it.
Interestingly enough, TCW is supposed to cover this very issue at some point later in Season 3.
And if they screw it up just like they've screwed up so much else, I'll be the first to condemn them.
But you're correct in saying that it's not directly relevant to the episodes we've seen so far this season.
And if they screw it up just like they've screwed up so much else, I'll be the first to condemn them.
But you're correct in saying that it's not directly relevant to the episodes we've seen so far this season.
Speaking of the rest of Season 3, reports from the theatrical sneak peaks -- specifically of the Savage Oppress 3-episode arc -- have begun trickling in.
LOTS of spoilers below:
source
LOTS of spoilers below:
The story starts out with Dooku being contacted by Sidious. He wants Ventress killed. Ventress attacks Obi-Wan and Anakin's Star Destroyer. She shoots Obi-Wan down and he's forced to crash land on a Confederate Cruiser like scene in Revenge of the Sith (I was disappointed he didn't flip out of the ship like the film).
She crashes in the hanger too and radios Dooku for help. He says sorry, you've failed me for the last time and leaves her for dead. They end up fighting in the hanger bay and she escapes, barely alive after the ship goes down and is blown apart. Admiral Yalareen might have died here, but he didn't because he's in A New Hope. The ship is ready to blow and begins to break apart and all three scramble to their ships. Somehow the ships work, don't ask questions they just do.
She ends up unconscious in her ship drifting through space. Pirates pick her up and inject her with a stimulate. The pirate is a total hick Twilek with a cowboy accent. They crowd around her and she demands they take her to Dathomir. They laugh because there's nothing but fog and witches there. She does some Force Unleashed moves on them and they all die and she flies to the planet.
She approaches the Night Sisters Temple and ninja chicks with electric bow and arrows threaten to kill her. Luckily the mother comes and calls them off. She remembers Ventress as one of their own.
They do some scary chanting and carry her boy to a table. They have magic toxic water and they rub it on her body. These scenes are some serious occult shit from a 70s film or something. This causes her to see her life in a series of vision/flashbacks.
We see Ventress as a child, born in the witch coven. They give her off to a crazy wizard dude or something because they owe him and they have to and he starts to teach her the Force/magic. She's probably 5 years old here. A Jedi comes in and starts fighting the village, killing her Master. He sees her use the Force to kill her master's attackers and takes her on as an apprentice. Years later her master is killed and she lashes out in anger at her master's killer, making her choice to use the Dark Side of the Force. The vision ends with Dooku's "you've failed me for the last time" scene.
She's angry and pissed off. The Mother of the Night Sisters agrees to help her exact her revenge. These women are pure evil.
The mother contacts Dooku and says she knows he needs a new apprentice. She offers him one of Darth Maul's kin. Dooku accepts this gift.
Ventress and two girls are cloaked in magic that makes them invisible. They sneak into Dooku's house. with a poison dart. They shoot him with the dart and he goes blind. But Dooku doesn't need eyes to fight with his saber. They fight into a hall way and into a larger room. Dooku has enough and shocks the hell out of the girls and they flee.
Ventress then travels to a far away village that Darth Maul originates from. There are dudes like Maul but they aren't as menacing. They seems somewhat noble. Some of these scenes seemed to be inspired by Spartacus and the training place.
The commander of the clan orders all the leaders of the houses to fall in line and present themselves to Ventress. She walks up to some, punches them for being too short. Says one is attractive and kicks him down. Savage looks at his brother and says "keep quiet" and she picks Savage and his brother and one other dude. They are to fight her.
They fight her and she beats their asses. She first fights them in the dark and kills the 3rd guy. The lights come on and she fights both men. She is about to kill Savage's brother when he begs her to let him live and he submits to her, presumably as her mate.
Ventress takes Savage to the Mother Night Sister. They preform some sort of Satanic ritual on his body. He starts to convulse as he's consumed and possessed by their magic. His horns grow larger and his muscles bulge. He's like the Hulk compared to his previous self. He has a darkness in his eyes that wasn't there before. He grabs Ventress by the neck like a Frankenstein monster out of control. The Mother whispers to Ventress to tell him to stop. She screams it. But she says she must whisper it gentle and she does and he stops. They have total control of him.
Ventress bring his brother into the room. She orders him to kill him. His brother begs for his life but he doesn't see it that and he kills his brother. Convinced they have total control, the Mother Night Sister gives him to Dooku.
Dooku trains him in the Force by abusing him with lightning. He can't lift stones and in a scene that mirrors Empire, Savage says its impossible. Dooku shocks him until he starts to lift the stones out of anger. He shouts "I hate you!" at Dooku and Dooku says that's good because it's making him stronger.
Dooku orders Savage to take out a temple that's housing Republic Forces. Savage rushes in, a clip we've seen, and cuts them all down. He kills the master and the apprentice. He reports back to Dooku who is pleased. They train some, he's tortured some more by Dooku.
We then see the shots of the Republic Commandos bringing the bodies back home to Obi-Wan, Plo, and the gang. Yoda's intelligence tells them to go to Dathomir, they know he's one of the Maul guys.
Obi-Wan and Anakin land on the planet and Maul and Savage's tribe attack them. They fight for a while and then they get the head of the Maul people by the throat and Anakin threatens to kill him. They tell him to go to the Mother of the Night Sisters (I got the sense they figured that would be death for them anyways).
The mother doesn't want to fight them. She looks into her crystal ball and says he's on Toydaria. They rush there. Dooku orders Savage to abduct King Katuunko.
We see Savage land on the planet. He kills all the Toydarians. Obi-Wan and Anakin confront him. He's throwing them around and stuff. The dark side really is the quick and easy path to power. Savage buries the Jedi under some debris. Savage grabs Katuunko by the neck and snaps it. He then flees to the ship dragging the dead body on the ground and tossing it savagely onto the ship.
He lands at Dooku's base. Dooku is pissed. He wasn't supposed to kill him. He starts to torture Savage. Ventress steps out of the shadows. Dooku orders Savage to kill Ventress. Ventress laughs, taps Savage's forehead and he has to obey her commands. They start to fight Dooku but for some reason, he loses control of everything and attacks them both.
Anakin and Obi-Wan catch up them and start fighting Savage. Ventress and Dooku fight one another. This is the best fight in the series yet.
Ventress flees.
Savage fights his way out and flees back to the Mother. She vows to help him get revenge (that seems to be her thing). She says he can do it... she walks over to a crystal ball. He can do it if he finds his brother... The camera zooms to the ball and Darth Maul's face is in it. He's alive and in hiding. He can find the answers by wearing a talisman that will take him to his long lost brother.
She crashes in the hanger too and radios Dooku for help. He says sorry, you've failed me for the last time and leaves her for dead. They end up fighting in the hanger bay and she escapes, barely alive after the ship goes down and is blown apart. Admiral Yalareen might have died here, but he didn't because he's in A New Hope. The ship is ready to blow and begins to break apart and all three scramble to their ships. Somehow the ships work, don't ask questions they just do.
She ends up unconscious in her ship drifting through space. Pirates pick her up and inject her with a stimulate. The pirate is a total hick Twilek with a cowboy accent. They crowd around her and she demands they take her to Dathomir. They laugh because there's nothing but fog and witches there. She does some Force Unleashed moves on them and they all die and she flies to the planet.
She approaches the Night Sisters Temple and ninja chicks with electric bow and arrows threaten to kill her. Luckily the mother comes and calls them off. She remembers Ventress as one of their own.
They do some scary chanting and carry her boy to a table. They have magic toxic water and they rub it on her body. These scenes are some serious occult shit from a 70s film or something. This causes her to see her life in a series of vision/flashbacks.
We see Ventress as a child, born in the witch coven. They give her off to a crazy wizard dude or something because they owe him and they have to and he starts to teach her the Force/magic. She's probably 5 years old here. A Jedi comes in and starts fighting the village, killing her Master. He sees her use the Force to kill her master's attackers and takes her on as an apprentice. Years later her master is killed and she lashes out in anger at her master's killer, making her choice to use the Dark Side of the Force. The vision ends with Dooku's "you've failed me for the last time" scene.
She's angry and pissed off. The Mother of the Night Sisters agrees to help her exact her revenge. These women are pure evil.
The mother contacts Dooku and says she knows he needs a new apprentice. She offers him one of Darth Maul's kin. Dooku accepts this gift.
Ventress and two girls are cloaked in magic that makes them invisible. They sneak into Dooku's house. with a poison dart. They shoot him with the dart and he goes blind. But Dooku doesn't need eyes to fight with his saber. They fight into a hall way and into a larger room. Dooku has enough and shocks the hell out of the girls and they flee.
Ventress then travels to a far away village that Darth Maul originates from. There are dudes like Maul but they aren't as menacing. They seems somewhat noble. Some of these scenes seemed to be inspired by Spartacus and the training place.
The commander of the clan orders all the leaders of the houses to fall in line and present themselves to Ventress. She walks up to some, punches them for being too short. Says one is attractive and kicks him down. Savage looks at his brother and says "keep quiet" and she picks Savage and his brother and one other dude. They are to fight her.
They fight her and she beats their asses. She first fights them in the dark and kills the 3rd guy. The lights come on and she fights both men. She is about to kill Savage's brother when he begs her to let him live and he submits to her, presumably as her mate.
Ventress takes Savage to the Mother Night Sister. They preform some sort of Satanic ritual on his body. He starts to convulse as he's consumed and possessed by their magic. His horns grow larger and his muscles bulge. He's like the Hulk compared to his previous self. He has a darkness in his eyes that wasn't there before. He grabs Ventress by the neck like a Frankenstein monster out of control. The Mother whispers to Ventress to tell him to stop. She screams it. But she says she must whisper it gentle and she does and he stops. They have total control of him.
Ventress bring his brother into the room. She orders him to kill him. His brother begs for his life but he doesn't see it that and he kills his brother. Convinced they have total control, the Mother Night Sister gives him to Dooku.
Dooku trains him in the Force by abusing him with lightning. He can't lift stones and in a scene that mirrors Empire, Savage says its impossible. Dooku shocks him until he starts to lift the stones out of anger. He shouts "I hate you!" at Dooku and Dooku says that's good because it's making him stronger.
Dooku orders Savage to take out a temple that's housing Republic Forces. Savage rushes in, a clip we've seen, and cuts them all down. He kills the master and the apprentice. He reports back to Dooku who is pleased. They train some, he's tortured some more by Dooku.
We then see the shots of the Republic Commandos bringing the bodies back home to Obi-Wan, Plo, and the gang. Yoda's intelligence tells them to go to Dathomir, they know he's one of the Maul guys.
Obi-Wan and Anakin land on the planet and Maul and Savage's tribe attack them. They fight for a while and then they get the head of the Maul people by the throat and Anakin threatens to kill him. They tell him to go to the Mother of the Night Sisters (I got the sense they figured that would be death for them anyways).
The mother doesn't want to fight them. She looks into her crystal ball and says he's on Toydaria. They rush there. Dooku orders Savage to abduct King Katuunko.
We see Savage land on the planet. He kills all the Toydarians. Obi-Wan and Anakin confront him. He's throwing them around and stuff. The dark side really is the quick and easy path to power. Savage buries the Jedi under some debris. Savage grabs Katuunko by the neck and snaps it. He then flees to the ship dragging the dead body on the ground and tossing it savagely onto the ship.
He lands at Dooku's base. Dooku is pissed. He wasn't supposed to kill him. He starts to torture Savage. Ventress steps out of the shadows. Dooku orders Savage to kill Ventress. Ventress laughs, taps Savage's forehead and he has to obey her commands. They start to fight Dooku but for some reason, he loses control of everything and attacks them both.
Anakin and Obi-Wan catch up them and start fighting Savage. Ventress and Dooku fight one another. This is the best fight in the series yet.
Ventress flees.
Savage fights his way out and flees back to the Mother. She vows to help him get revenge (that seems to be her thing). She says he can do it... she walks over to a crystal ball. He can do it if he finds his brother... The camera zooms to the ball and Darth Maul's face is in it. He's alive and in hiding. He can find the answers by wearing a talisman that will take him to his long lost brother.
source
The only way they could "screw up" is to choose an option that makes for a worse story when they could have chosen an option that makes for a better story.Interestingly enough, TCW is supposed to cover this very issue at some point later in Season 3.
And if they screw it up just like they've screwed up so much else, I'll be the first to condemn them.
My hunch is that "balance means balance of Light and Dark" is better for storytelling, but I'm certainly willing to keep an open mind if the TCW writers feel otherwise and can make a good case for their viewpoint.
It's abundantly clear that there's no actual logic to all this Force/Jedi/Sith razzmatazz which is why people can find whatever evidence they like to support the position they prefer and the arguments go on interminably. What's the point? The arguments themselves prove the absence of clear canon.
It's good that there's no canon on this issue, since the canon might be inimicable to good storytelling, as it so often is. The writers should feel free to establish canon at this point. All I ask is that they use the talent and smarts that they've demonstrated so far, and establish the canon that will be best for storytelling now and in the future.
Speaking as an EU fan, this. I'm dubious about the idea of TCW completely nailing down canon on the force (even if I like what they do) because sure, taken as a whole the EU's ideas about the force are a complete mess and bad storytelling, but as a fan the diversity in the perspectives out there and continued development of more perspectives is lot more interesting to think and talk about than had we just had it spelled out for us from the start. Granted most writers don't delve into the nature of the force, but those that do typically use the force to reflect a larger point, whether that's the Dark Rendezvous author saying people who use the dark side are stronger because there's nothing they won't do, but that their devotion to themselves cuts them off from everyone else, to KotOR 2's, well
Kreia said:
I wouldn't want to see future writers who may have good ideas hamstrung by TCW canon anymore than I want to see TCW be hamstrung by film canon now.
The best thing about this is all the EU fans going absolute apeshit.
The CW thread on their lit forum has officially become a Basher haven.
I never quite got the adoration and devotion to the EU. Some of it was entertaining, but I'm always a little take aback by how some folk take the EU as gospel.
Well if you spend a couple of thousand dollars amassing every SW comic book, book and game because it's "canon", you'd be pretty pissed if it all got screwed up by a tv show.
I'm hoping for one of those retards to actually burn all their valuables in a nerdrage.
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I'll never understand the idea that "because it's canon" is a more important reason for reading a story than "because it's entertaining." I mean, what, do these people think they're studying for an exam and have to collect only the "right" sources?
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