Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far

[DarthPipes]

Which Sith must not believe, unless they are just flat-out stupid. Palps seems far too cagey to adopt a philosophy that he knows will destroy him in the end - what's the advantage of that? Maybe if Palps were one of those people who just can't think long-term, but if there's one thing he excels at, it's long-term planning.

Well, I wouldn't say it's guarenteed to destroy you but you have to be on guard so that it doesn't destroy you.

If we've learned anything from the movies, it's that Palpatine is a massive long-term thinker. The way he rose from Senator to Chancellor to Emperor, how he manipulated events and worked on turning Anakin for more than a decade, this guy is the master of the long-term plan. If Palpatine had a flaw in the end, it was that he wasn't as good of a military planner as he was a political planner. He completely underestimated the Rebels and Ewoks at Endor and he was so confident in himself and the dark side that he thought Vader would do nothing as his son was tortured. It bit him in the ass.

In fairness, it's easy to see why Palpatine got so overconfident. He had succeeded big-time in the prequels. He decided to work his old and very successful formula in ROTJ (lure the Rebels into a trap by thinking they have secretly obtained the Death Star plans) and in the end, it backfired dramatically.

 

[fett51]

The fact that the Dark Side will inevitably doom them should be motivation enough, even if they care only for themselves. If we assume the Sith believe the history books, then they're being self-defeating and suicidal. Either they think the history books are all Jedi propaganda, or the addiction metaphor is the correct one, because addicts will sacrifice their long-term self-interest to short-term gratification (which still doesn't explain Palps, but maybe he's just crazy).

I don't think they see it as the dark side itself dooming them though. The dark side use wasn't what killed Palps, or Anakin, or Dooku, or Maul. They all died (directly or not) because of Jedi. Palps master died not because he was consumed by the dark side, he died because Palps killed him in his sleep. Historically, the Sith a few times beat the Jedi only to turn on each other as soon as they thought they'd won, which enabled the Jedi to come back. Per RotS, Palps is aware Anakin will likely surpass him. He says to Yoda Vader will eventually become more powerful than either of them (other dialogue shows Palps plans to control him by holding back knowledge Anakin wants). If there is a doom which comes with the dark side, it's that they are completely individualistic and can't rely on anyone but themselves, which makes them incredibly vulnerable. Dooku realizes this during Dark Rendezvous, he believes he is completely alone now. Palps thinks he can get around this by being smart - slave armies to act as enforcers, wiping out threats to him before his enemies realize who he is, and making sure he has what he thinks is an absolute hold over Anakin.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Regarding Luke's reorganization of the Jedi Order in the novels along with the policy differences he has instituted along the way, I believe that most of this was implemented as a result of the prequel era Jedi not being established in canon yet. Most of the stuff was made up and then contradicted later on in the movies. The new Jedi Order doesn't even use the term Padawan even though there is no reason for them not to now. There have been books written since the prequels have come out where the sequel characters have been given information about the prequel era. Also the recently released Jedi Manual has annotations from Luke in it.

I'm kind of coming out of no where with this but hope it makes some sense.

 

[Hound of UIster]

They do use the term padawan.

Jaina was described as the padawan apprentice of Luke's wife.

I think the same was with her brothers as Luke's apprentices.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Since when then? I have to admit that I've sort of given up on the Legacy of the Force books since if they've been using the term in those I've not read them. Thanks for bringing it to my attention though.

 

[fett51]

Jaina was apprenticed during the first half of the NJO, which books specifically I couldn't tell you offhand. By LotF she's been Knighted. FTR, Vector Prime came out the October after Episode 1, so there was time for episode 1 ideas to filter into the books.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I don't think they see it as the dark side itself dooming them though.

So they're doomed but only because the rules of Star Wars say so, rather than it being a guaranteed consequence of their behavior?

 

[Galileo7]

I don't think they see it as the dark side itself dooming them though.

So they're doomed but only because the rules of Star Wars say so, rather than it being a guaranteed consequence of their behavior?

Yes, SW fate destiny.

 

[Hound of UIster]

I don't think they see it as the dark side itself dooming them though.

So they're doomed but only because the rules of Star Wars say so, rather than it being a guaranteed consequence of their behavior?

No the dark side encourages the obsession towards oneself over that of all others. It a flaw of their power.

 

[fett51]

So they're doomed but only because the rules of Star Wars say so, rather than it being a guaranteed consequence of their behavior?

Ultimately, yes. Their behavior just makes survival hard, heck even their rules do, they progress by having apprentices kill their masters. In the EU at least the reason given is they believe being challenged constantly gives them strength and makes them grow, while being at peace breeds weakness and complacency. The only reason I think they would be doomed in a metaphysical sense has to do with the whole balance of the force concept, and that applies equally to Jedi.

We're supposed to be getting a lot more on sith, the balance of the force, and what Anakin being the chosen one means this season of TCW, so I'm sure we'll be revisiting this whole conversation in a few months.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I am aware of the apprenticeships of Jania (Mara Jade was her Master I believe), Luke was Jacen's Master wasn't he? Before he was taken captive by the Vong? I am referring to the usage of the word Padawan. This must have been fairly recent.

The prophecy of the Chosen One might be something dwelt on as Dan Wallace hinted at during his book review of the Jedi Path since Lucas Film told him he couldn't have that section in his Jedi Path manual. Thus he came up with the decision to literally tear those pages out of the book and it's explained that it was done by Darth Sidious. So look out for it to be touched on in the remainder of the season. He didn't speculate what they would be using it for...

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I don't think they see it as the dark side itself dooming them though.

So they're doomed but only because the rules of Star Wars say so, rather than it being a guaranteed consequence of their behavior?

No the dark side encourages the obsession towards oneself over that of all others. It a flaw of their power.

Self-centeredness doesn't necessarily doom anyone. Works very well for many Hollywood celebrities.

If the Sith knew for a fact they were doomed, and assuming they're not behaving like drug addicts, then they have to believe they can get away with it, even if no Sith did before. That's egotism for ya! Besides, Jedi often end badly, so the Light Side is no guarantee of happiness or success, either.

 

[Set Harth]

We're supposed to be getting a lot more on sith, the balance of the force, and what Anakin being the chosen one means this season of TCW, so I'm sure we'll be revisiting this whole conversation in a few months.

If it's going to be anything like the way TCW has handled the war itself, be afraid. Be very afraid. TCW apparently doesn't understand the basic idea of a war of secession, and Lucas either hasn't noticed or doesn't really give a shit.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

TCW apparently doesn't understand the basic idea of a war of secession, and Lucas either hasn't noticed or doesn't really give a shit.

What's a war of secession supposed to be like?

Now that the Separatists are being given a semblance of a good reason for defecting from the Republic, I can buy the war, pretty much. Other than the oddity that neither side seems to give a shit about the fight enough to fight personally. If I were a Jedi, I'd be feeling a bit like a chump, fighting alongside people who are essentially slaves against robots who are no better than slaves. What does that make me?

 

[Admiral_Young]

Your avatar is awesome Temis

 

[ProtoAvatar]

I don't think they see it as the dark side itself dooming them though.

So they're doomed but only because the rules of Star Wars say so, rather than it being a guaranteed consequence of their behavior?

Why should the sith be doomed at all?

The jedi managed to defeat them - so far.
This is no way guarantees that the jedi will manage to defeat the sith the next time the latter make their move.

About the force, jedi rules, balance of the force, etc - it's obvious Lucas didn't think any of these through before using them, which is why the star wars universe is left with contradictory/non-sensical worldbuilding.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Your avatar is awesome Temis

All of her avatars are awesome. I don't know how she makes them, but they're always among my favourites.

 

[JD]

I don't think they see it as the dark side itself dooming them though.

So they're doomed but only because the rules of Star Wars say so, rather than it being a guaranteed consequence of their behavior?

Why should the sith be doomed at all?

The jedi managed to defeat them - so far.
This is no way guarantees that the jedi will manage to defeat the sith the next time the latter make their move.

The Jedi lose to the Sith again in the Legacy comic book series. In the series a Sith Lord who's been in hiding since the Clone Wars era overthrows a new Empire and kills most of the Jedi. Trust me, it's actually alot better than it sounds.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Your avatar is awesome Temis

All of her avatars are awesome. I don't know how she makes them, but they're always among my favourites.

Thanks. I draw them in Illustrator, convert the frames to pixels automatically by saving the frames as gifs and then use ImageReady to animate the frames. I have no idea how people construct images pixel by pixel, my brain doesn't work that way.

Woo-hoo, new TCW tonight! I'm really curious to see the follow-up to the last episode. I think this series may be really hitting its stride.

Why should the sith be doomed at all?

That gets to the heart of what Star Wars is all about: is it a morality play about the triumph of good over evil or not? And that all depends on what the Force actually is. Is it something that wants the good side to win, or something that wants to achieve balance by having neither side win permanently? From what I've gathered, there's no clear consensus about this, but I like the latter interpretation.

 

[fett51]

If it's going to be anything like the way TCW has handled the war itself, be afraid. Be very afraid. TCW apparently doesn't understand the basic idea of a war of secession, and Lucas either hasn't noticed or doesn't really give a shit.

As of two weeks ago they appear to actually be trying with regards to that plotline, at least Speaking of Lucas, his daughter is writing that arc. So far she's written Jedi Crash (first Aayla ep in S1) and Sphere of Influence and Assassin in S3. None of those were criminal and she apparently did a lot of research on the EU before writing them (we saw Ky Narec in a trailer actually), so I'm not any more worried than I am about episodes of this show in general

Woo-hoo, new TCW tonight! I'm really curious to see the follow-up to the last episode. I think this series may be really hitting its stride.

Last one till January though >_>