Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far

[fett51]

The number of regular people willing to do exactly what the clones do, should easily outnumber the clones.

Maybe, but we don't have the foggiest idea how big the clone army actually is, or how many cloning facilities the Kaminoans have. The only concrete information on the size of the clone army is that "200,000 units" were ready in time for Geonosis with "a million more well on the way." 1.2 million is obviously an absurdly small number for a galactic war, so cue fandom debate on what a "unit" is.

There are units of non-clone/non-droid soldiers involved in the war, but we haven't seen much of them in TCW yet. Most of them are restricted to their home planets, like the Twi'lek resistance on Ryloth, or the Geonosians. Those are people defending their homes though, and they're always outnumbered by droid/clone forces.

Oooh, just thought of something interesting - what if a Jedi honestly believed the Separatists had a valid viewpoint and wanted to fight for them. That person wouldn't be a Sith, since their intentions would be for the good, as they see it.

I've been wanting to see something like that for some time. Back in Ep 2 Dooku told Obi-wan that the Senate was being controlled by a Sith lord called Darth Sidious, who had manipulated Nute Gunray (incidentally, his name is a combination of Newt Gingrich and Reagan) into the events of Episode 1. That is all absolutely true, and I really miss that aspect of Dooku. Seeing a Jedi who bought that line would be brilliant, thought Dooku would have to keep them very far away from Grievous and Ventress

Or to put it another way, if TCW is Anakin's story, then every element in the story should have something to do with Anakin, or at least not distract from it by suggesting unintentional things.

I meant that's why he didn't stick it in the films. He cut a lot of stuff for that reason, including Boba Fett trying to kill Mace Windu in ep 3, as well as the beginnings of the Rebellion. It absolutely should be in TCW, just as Boba Fett trying to kill Mace Windu made it into TCW, and we should see Padme/Bail/Mon Mothma slowly realizing who Palpatine is. TCW is the place for all these other stories to come out. Star Wars is a big universe and there's a heck of a lot more stories to tell than Anakin's.

 

[DarthPipes]

Actually, I heard the name Nute Gunray was based all on Reagan. Nute=Knute, as in Knute Rockne All-American where Reagan played The Gipper. I don't think GL ever forgave Reagan because his strategic missile defense was called Star Wars. He sued to make sure that name couldn't be used and lost.

Dooku has had different portrayels in the Clone Wars. One of Jude Watson's books (Secrets of the Jedi I believe) basically had him a selfish power-hungrey individual since he was 13. In that book, it seems that Qui-Gon was always Qui-Gon too. That never set right with me. I always assumed Qui-Gon learned from Dooku how to challenge the Council but unlike Dooku, knew not to go crazy. He never would have joined the Sith. Dooku couldn't have been too crazy about Qui-Gon...he joined forces with the cult that killed his former apprentice.

Dark Rendezvous (written during the original Clone Wars campaign in 2003 or 2004) presents a fascinating profile on Dooku. It's definitely a much different take on the character, who wants to meet with Yoda about possibly defecting.

I did read that Filoni stated we would learn more about Dooku's past this season.

I've always thought Dooku was ten times more intriguing than Darth Maul. Maul is a cool character but completely one-dimensional when compared to Dooku.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Dark Rendezvous is also the book where it is mentioned that Dooku sees the possibility of a Sith Order or Empire as the best political reorganization for the galaxy. He sees his master as the Emperor with him as the new head of a Sith led Jedi Order or something similar. I believe that he is explaining this to Ventress who he has some interesting scenes with as he is teaching her about the history of the Sith. I was so intrigued by this idea proposed in the novel that I considered writing a fan fic about it but never got around to it. It is quite obvious that Dooku does not see himself as the simple pawn that it is. The expression on his face when Palpatine orders Anakin to execute him on Grevious's flagship should cement this point. He was genuinely shocked. Dooku probably was deluded into believing that he was maybe on even terms with his master and they were working together instead of Dooku being the one who is used. Another facet of the Dark Side is that it blinds a person to the truth...even one who uses it. One could use this argument with Jacen Solo as well he was blinded with his philosophical anecdotes on the nature of the Force...he was being manipulated by Vergere into accepting the dark side.

 

[Hound of UIster]

Dark Rendezvous is also the book where it is mentioned that Dooku sees the possibility of a Sith Order or Empire as the best political reorganization for the galaxy. He sees his master as the Emperor with him as the new head of a Sith led Jedi Order or something similar.

No that was the Revenge of the Sith novelization where he fantasized about being the head of a dark side order with Anakin and Palpatine.

Dark Rendezvous's Dooku's motivation seems more amorphous and stems more from disillusionment and bitterness.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Ah okay I am getting those books confused.

 

[DarthPipes]

Dooku really wasn't expecting that. Labyrinth of Evil and a GL interview talks about what the "game plan" was supposed to be. Basically, if Dooku defeated Anakin, then it would prove that Anakin wasn't ready yet and they would just let him stu for a few years. If Anakin got the upper hand, Palpatine would step in and stop him. Obviously that didn't happen. Always thought Dooku could have a good age discrimination suit against Palpatine as a result.

Dooku is interesting because he was already a Jedi Master with decades of experience and much older than Palpatine. He probably saw himself as more of an equal to Palpatine even though that wasn't the case. I'm sure he saw their future as kind of a co-ruler thing. I'm not up on Latin but I believe Tyranus means absolute ruler. Leave it to Palpatine to give someone that name to lure them into a false sense of security.

 

[fett51]

^the Latin is Tyrannus, which just means tyrant. It's based off greek turannos, which does mean absolute ruler.

The Dark Rendezvous is the characterization I had in mind, glad more people are fans of Dooku in that book. I felt his motivations were pretty clear, he thought that turning to the dark side was merely to stop lying to oneself and embrace who they are (which includes anger, hate, fear, passion, desire), he still genuinely thinks the Republic is useless, he respects the Jedi though he finds them naive and deluded, but he also thinks most of his separatist allies are scum and has zero problem betraying them. We also got an exploration of his past and his history with Yoda, and his confrontation with Yoda at the end provided closure on that storyline left hanging from AotC. It's pretty hard to square this depiction of Dooku with the fairly one-dimensional one in Clone Wars. Hopefully they'll sort that in coming episodes, we'll see.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I felt his motivations were pretty clear, he thought that turning to the dark side was merely to stop lying to oneself and embrace who they are (which includes anger, hate, fear, passion, desire)

Darth Ayn Rand?

Of all the varied explanations for Sith-ism I've seen so far, that one seems the most plausible if you assume that Sith are three-dimensional characters, complex enough that mere power and prestige aren't enough as life goals, and are still in control of their actions (the dark side doesnt' work completely from mind control or addiction).

The Jedi come off as repressed and kinda sad, really. Unless what they are fighting for is some glorious, faultless shining city on a hill, it's hard to justify sacrificing most of what makes you human (or Togruta, or whatever) in its defense. Even if the Republic has only minor defects with corruption or whatever, it would be easy for a Jedi to ask "why am I being such a chump?" and jump ship. The Jedi are behaving like they live in something other than the nasty old real world, where anything you think is a glorious city on a hill is bound to turn out to be a fraud.

And before I forget again, I've been meaning to ask: is there any explanation why Anakin came up with "Snips" as Ahsoka's nickname? Because the patterns on her face (natural markings rather than tattoos, I assume?) look like they are cut-out patterns? Or is it just some random whim?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

And before I forget again, I've been meaning to ask: is there any explanation why Anakin came up with "Snips" as Ahsoka's nickname? Because the patterns on her face (natural markings rather than tattoos, I assume?) look like they are cut-out patterns? Or is it just some random whim?

I think in the CW movie he mentioned that it was becuase she was snippy.

 

[Whofan]

Temis, you might like Luke's version of the Jedi order from the novels and comics-it's not quite as repressed. Jedi are allowed families, philosophical differences etc. (Apart from of course, going to the dark side). They're not introduced in the Thrawn Trilogy (Although Luke starts on the road to building a new Jedi), though, but in the Jedi Academy trilogy which, unfortunately, is not quite as good. The order is pretty much developed by the time of Del Rey's NJO novels.


Of course, the 'real world' reason for this is that the Jedi Order introduced in the novels at the time (Mid-90s) had only the original trilogy to go on, and hence we had a very different vision of the Jedi Order. Novels made after the prequels often address how different Luke's order is from the original.

Although that's another problem-In a few Expanded Universe tales written before the prequels that take place when the old Jedi Order was fully operational, they act like Luke's order pretty much. Of course these usually take place thousands of years before the movies, so it's possible that the stagnant PT order evolved over that time.

 

[DarthPipes]

^the Latin is Tyrannus, which just means tyrant. It's based off greek turannos, which does mean absolute ruler.

The Dark Rendezvous is the characterization I had in mind, glad more people are fans of Dooku in that book. I felt his motivations were pretty clear, he thought that turning to the dark side was merely to stop lying to oneself and embrace who they are (which includes anger, hate, fear, passion, desire), he still genuinely thinks the Republic is useless, he respects the Jedi though he finds them naive and deluded, but he also thinks most of his separatist allies are scum and has zero problem betraying them. We also got an exploration of his past and his history with Yoda, and his confrontation with Yoda at the end provided closure on that storyline left hanging from AotC. It's pretty hard to square this depiction of Dooku with the fairly one-dimensional one in Clone Wars. Hopefully they'll sort that in coming episodes, we'll see.

I agree. I liked that portrayel of Dooku but it was inconsistent with how he's been portrayed in the movies and cartoon.

 

[Whofan]

Kind of funny, I found Dark Rendevous very much like a Clone Wars episode in a few ways. Maybe it's because Ventress plays a fairly prominent role?

 

[Hound of UIster]

It has a lot of kid appeal. Yoda as a central character with two very young pre-teen supporting characters.

And a bunch of morals included there too much like a CW story.

 

[fett51]

The Jedi come off as repressed and kinda sad, really. Unless what they are fighting for is some glorious, faultless shining city on a hill, it's hard to justify sacrificing most of what makes you human (or Togruta, or whatever) in its defense. Even if the Republic has only minor defects with corruption or whatever, it would be easy for a Jedi to ask "why am I being such a chump?" and jump ship. The Jedi are behaving like they live in something other than the nasty old real world, where anything you think is a glorious city on a hill is bound to turn out to be a fraud.

Yoda addressed this. He said he can't get anything through the dark side that he can't get through means that don't cause harm. He also thinks there's no amount of personal power that can stop loss or pain from happening, or that can keep him or the people he cares about safe. So inflicting pain in pursuit of power or embracing negative emotions is pointless and self-indulgent in his view. Now, is he repressed? somewhat, he admits he has the dark side in him still, whether that's more repression than any of us do of our worst impulses is hard to say. Sad? Definitely. He's 900, how many Jedi has he helped raise from childhood and then seen die over the years? How many more now with the war? How many has he ordered to their deaths? Non-attachment is probably the only thing keeping him sane.

Hmm, now that you mention it considering one's highest moral aim to be personal happiness does sound pretty Sith

 

[Temis the Vorta]

What if a Jedi simply didn't believe Yoda? The Jedi are all expected to take these things at face value rather than test the waters for themselves. For that matter, did Yoda ever test the waters? That would seem pretty out of character for him. The only way you can know for sure what the Dark Side is like is to give it a try.

Granted, the way known Sith behave doesn't suggest high moral standards, but maybe that's because they've bought into Jedi propaganda and it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. I'd like to see Anakin start to realize all this for himself. He's been in an "attached" relationship with Padme for years and the sky hasn't fallen. Maybe the Jedi are wrong about other things, too. What's so horrible about thinking for yourself?

I think in the CW movie he mentioned that it was becuase she was snippy.

Oh, he's one to talk!

 

[DarthPipes]

It's strange. In ESB, Yoda clearly states that the dark side isn't stronger but quicker and more seductive. In the AOTC commentary track, Lucas (during the Shmi funeral scene) states the dark side is stronger. Talk about a lack of consistency. My thought...the dark side is stronger because it allows you to use the Force without restraint but it will ultimately destroy you. That's why it takes a stronger person to resist it.

As for how the light side is stronger, because you can retain your identity even after death. AKA Force ghosts.

I liked the two padawans in Dark Rendezvous. Very good characters.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Maybe the Dark Side is the "default condition" for Force users so that if someone were a Force user, and knew nothing of Jedi or Sith or even what was going on with them, and howcome they can move rocks with their mind, they would naturally gravitate towards the Dark Side. The Dark Side is downstream; the Light Side is upstream. If you want to go upstream, you have to make a conscious decision.

So the Dark Side is not stronger in the sense that it gives you an edge in fighting, all things being equal, but stronger in the sense that you have to be on your guard against it, but never have to be on your guard against the Light Side.

the dark side is stronger because it allows you to use the Force without restraint but it will ultimately destroy you.

Which Sith must not believe, unless they are just flat-out stupid. Palps seems far too cagey to adopt a philosophy that he knows will destroy him in the end - what's the advantage of that? Maybe if Palps were one of those people who just can't think long-term, but if there's one thing he excels at, it's long-term planning.

Also, nobody is going to adopt a philosophy that "blinds them to the truth" - that would expose them to attack from enemies! The Sith and Jedi must simply believe different "truths" about the force. The Sith think the Jedi are full of it. I wouldn't blame Anakin if he started thinking the Jedi are full of it, too.

Temis, you might like Luke's version of the Jedi order from the novels and comics-it's not quite as repressed. Jedi are allowed families, philosophical differences etc. (Apart from of course, going to the dark side).

Despite all my ranting, I do approve of the notion that Jedi rules are mandatory, not something the Jedi invented just to be mean or out of some weird kind of egotism (look how ascetically pure we are, and superior to everyone else!) because it provides good dramatic tension for the story. Also, it wouldn't be a good thing for Yoda et al to look totally out to lunch on the topic because it would imply that the Republic fell because the Jedi were a bunch of needless prigs.

I'd love to see Luke's story pursued post-ROTJ, if 1) the new Republic is fed up with all Force users and bans Jedism outright (and who can blame them, when their so-called protectors have a nasty tendency to go nuts defect to the other side? nobody wants their security to be based on such a precarious system) and 2) Luke ends up re-discovering the wheel in regards to the attachment rules, and learns that some variation on them is necessary. Maybe Yoda was 100% right all along. You'd think he'd have learned something in 900 years.

 

[fett51]

Lucas also says in the RotJ commentary that the dark side is stronger. In thinking the sides are equal, Yoda is wrong. Palpatine addresses this directly when he talks to Anakin about embracing a larger view of the force rather than just the dogmatic narrow view of the Jedi. The Jedi way is all about holding themselves back and avoiding temptation, and much as IRL people who are willing to use any method to achieve their goals have an advantage over those who have ethical boundaries, the Sith have some advantage over Jedi. The addictive nature of the dark side I think is that it is much easier to get what one wants providing one no longer cares about about the consequences their actions have on others, and once someone only cares about themselves, what is there to draw them back?

What's so horrible about thinking for yourself?

In this case, "those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it." Their history books are no doubt replete with stories about fallen Jedi and Sith, doubtless they show at least behaviorally what embracing the dark side does to a person. There are Jedi Masters who have become disillusioned and left without turning, the Lost 20, of which Dooku was one. What their reasoning was, we sadly don't know.

1) the new Republic is fed up with all Force users and bans Jedism outright (and who can blame them, when their so-called protectors have a nasty tendency to go nuts defect to the other side? nobody wants their security to be based on such a precarious system) and 2) Luke ends up re-discovering the wheel in regards to the attachment rules, and learns that some variation on them is necessary. Maybe Yoda was 100% right all along. You'd think he'd have learned something in 900 years.

Spoiler: post jedi novels

I'm years out of date on Post-Jedi novels, but I understand all of this has happened since I stopped reading.

 

[DarKush]

Since the Republic has never been convincingly been portrayed as in need of reform until now (I guess that was the reason for the corruption-centric episodes we were treated to - which still far way way short of proving that it's a systemic problem, given the sheer vastness of a galaxy-spanning Republic), then even if Dooku was better developed in the movies, it would still be impossible to tell whether his quest for reform was sincere or just an excuse for wanting power.

Same problem as with Anakin's political rant in AOTC - we didn't have the necessary context for knowing whether to take such things at face value. Here's hoping the show can continue to correct these problems.

To be fair, GL did try to show political paralysis in the Senate in TPM, with the Trade Federation having a big influence, which indicated widespread corruption, IMO. In fact, Palpatine was considered a honest politician, someone who could get things done, and Padme even wished he would bring order or sense or something to the Senate (I can't remember her exact words). Not saying that GL didn't do a good job of it, but he was trying to show that the Republic was corroding before the Clone Wars series.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

and once someone only cares about themselves, what is there to draw them back?

The fact that the Dark Side will inevitably doom them should be motivation enough, even if they care only for themselves. If we assume the Sith believe the history books, then they're being self-defeating and suicidal. Either they think the history books are all Jedi propaganda, or the addiction metaphor is the correct one, because addicts will sacrifice their long-term self-interest to short-term gratification (which still doesn't explain Palps, but maybe he's just crazy).

Not saying that GL didn't do a good job of it, but he was trying to show that the Republic was corroding before the Clone Wars series.

I think the basic problem is that economics and corruption are unweildy, hard-to-dramatize topics to try to shoehorn into a series of action movies where the audience is expecting splosions, not tax policy. It would have been better to choose something more dynamic and visual to serve as an easy shorthand to convince the audience that LOOK THE REPUBLIC IS BAD!

Forget taxes and trade routes, the clones were the way to go. We just need to be clearly shown 1) the Republic can't raise troops to defend itself because the population is lazy, cynical and corrupt; 2) the Jedi hate the idea of using clones as cannon fodder because it violates their principles but have no choice; and 3) the war escalates to such an extent that the Jedi actually have to ramp up clone production and have no hope of ever getting out of the trap they're in. As a bonus, we now have a perfectly good reason for Anakin to go off the reservation: the Republic isn't worth the effort to defend, and the Jedi are becoming Sith anyway, so what's the diff, really?

If Lucas wants to take another crack at economics and corruption in TCW, more power to him. Now he's got a vast amount of screentime at his disposal, but with the limitation that this is a series that might not be only for kids, but has to appeal to them, so once again, I don't think it's viable to expect TCW to be the place for a detailed and convincing explanation of how a democracy goes bad because of complicated economic reasons. Even a series like DS9, which did a great job with detailed political plotlines, avoided economics and stuck to power politics and cultural foibles as the basis for their stories. And that was even with the advantage of not having to keep the stories kid-friendly.