Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far

[Temis the Vorta]

The Sith/Jedi conflict is definitely at the center of this conflict.

That may be the idea, but I'm not seeing it actually dramatized (but still hoping it's coming up sometime). Instead, I'm seeing Sith vs. the Republic, with the Jedi fighting for the Republic. I want Sith vs. the Jedi at a level above politics, with the Separatists and the Republic being a lower level of the same fight, in the political realm.

But you have to wonder Padme's logic at the same time. She knows the kind of man that Dooku is and I'm sure she knows he's a Sith Lord. You're not going to be able to negoiate with people like Dooku or Grievous.

Maybe she thinks she can pry the well-meaning Separatists away from the Sith influence. Or maybe she does think that even Sith can be reasoned with.

Another thing I'm curious about but haven't seen dramatized is exactly what "normal" people understand about the Jedi and the Sith. Maybe Padme just sees that as a political fight as well, and not some big-ass metaphysical struggle of Good vs. Evil where political ideas like negotiation are completely out of place.

If she doesn't see the stuff with the Force as being outside the realm of her own understanding of reality, that might also explain why she doesn't take Jedi rules about "no attachments" seriously enough to avoid being married to a Jedi who is obviously very attached to her. It's just another problem for reasonable people to deal with, not some ironclad rule that will "always" lead to tragedy.

The movies never directly addressed why the Seperatists broke away from the Republic. You can get the ideas based on TPM I suppose. Corrupt and ineffective government that gets a new leader. Ten years later we learn that thousands of star systems are about to break away from the Republic. GL pretty much didn't feel the need to explain any of it.

He was wrong there. Depending on whether the war was "organic" or contrived, the characters come off as smart or stupid. I personally find it impossible to identify with stupid characters and once I lose identification with the characters, any story devolves into a farce.

So the lack of explaining Separatist motives destroyed the whole PT for me. Hayden Christensen was just the nail in the coffin.

The fact of the matter is a number of things led to the downfall of the Republic but perhaps one of the biggest things is the arrogance and contentment of even the Jedi Council.

Yet another aspect of the story that has been left in the dark! Are the Jedi to blame for any of this, and to what degree? I've gotten the impression that we're expected to believe they are blameless. But now (perhaps inadvertently) they are being implicated: if the Separatists' grievances are legitimate, then why don't the Jedi see that? Why are they acting like the Republic can do no wrong, and deserves their blind allegiance?

They may be the military and should "stay out of politics" but if they are being asked to fight against people who have legitimate grievances, they are being irresponsible and immoral not to ask hard questions about the situation. If Padme knows the situation is ambiguous, the Jedi should have known that from the first, and should have been questioning their role in the war all along.

I think most people were just happy that the war had ended, and didn't realize that becoming an Empire was going to be so bad for them.

That sounds like a reasonable assumption.

Apathy? Uh, no. Are we forgetting Padme's line "So this is how liberty dies: to thunderous applause."

We know Padme cared. Bail and Mon Mothma presumably did too, and maybe a few allies, but did they represent anyone but themselves? Did everyone else only wake up after the Empire descended upon their lives?

The Empire didn't happen because people didn't care, it happened because people thought it was a good idea.

I don't think they were signing up for an Empire at all, but rather a Republic with more security and maybe without the pesky nuisance of having to come to terms with the Seppys and actually fix the crap that was wrong with the Republic. Maybe everyone was complacent and lazy rather than scared.

Palpatine turned the Republic into a very effective government

He was also the moron who brought the Zilo beast to Coruscant. The fact that he didn't lose his job and end up in prison over that argues for the apathy viewpoint.

The good news is that the debate in this thread proves how underdeveloped the story is so far, which means TCW has plenty of potential fodder for future seasons.

For example, now that the Seppys have been revealed to be people who do care enough about the corrupt, doddering government of the Republic to do something about it, might they actually turn out to be the nucleus of the Rebellion? At least they've shown that they aren't asleep and complacent, and they have a fighting spirit. When they realize they've been conned by their so-called leader Dooku, and that the Empire will be even more oppressive than the Republic was, they should respond with another rebellion.

If I were part of this story, I think I'd be on the Separatist side and very jaundiced about the Jedi, who may be extremely powerful but aren't using their power very wisely. And if someone told me that Jedi = good, Sith = bad, I would be inclined to dismiss that as propaganda and wonder whether the reverse were actually the truth.

Which could explain why reasonable people would side with a known Sith. And when Dooku shows his true colors, what does that prove? Maybe that the Jedi and the Sith are basically the same, and neither are trustworthy?

 

[fett51]

a galaxy-full of morons who can't see that one guy is manipulating everyone into disaster.

Buh? Not realizing Palpatine is after power would make them idiots, but not figuring out he's in charge of the Seps too? What evidence do they have of that?

Maybe Padme just sees that as a political fight as well, and not some big-ass metaphysical struggle of Good vs. Evil where political ideas like negotiation are completely out of place.

ding. She's always, always on about negotiations, even in the films. You'll recall in the last episode, Anakin explaining the conflict in black and white terms was what caused her to take off with Ahsoka.

I don't think they were signing up for an Empire at all, but rather a Republic with more security and maybe without the pesky nuisance of having to come to terms with the Seppys and actually fix the crap that was wrong with the Republic. Maybe everyone was complacent and lazy rather than scared.

He said "the Republic will be reorganized into the first Galactic Empire for a safe and secure society." I'm sure they thought policy wise it wouldn't be that different, but they sure knew the autocracy was coming, and welcomed it.

He was also the moron who brought the Zilo beast to Coruscant. The fact that he didn't lose his job and end up in prison over that argues for the apathy viewpoint.

I'd assumed he pinned that decision on someone else after it went wrong. He is a politician after all

For example, now that the Seppys have been revealed to be people who do care enough about the corrupt, doddering government of the Republic to do something about it, might they actually turn out to be the nucleus of the Rebellion?

They might, except that Palpatine is going to kill them all. Identifying disloyal elements is part of the reason he started the war. Bail and Mon Mothma are outwardly loyal to the Empire, that's the only reason they aren't dead when the OT rolls around.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Not realizing Palpatine is after power would make them idiots, but not figuring out he's in charge of the Seps too? What evidence do they have of that?

If there's no good reason for the war, that should set off alarm bells that would not happen if the Seppys had legitimate grievances. The good guys might not know that Palps was involved, but they should show a good deal more skepticism about the war and behave differently from the start. Alternatively, if the idea is to give the good guys a reason not to display that skepticism, give the Seppys legitimate grievances. That's happened now, which is more evidence that TCW is being written with a good deal more intelligence and skill than the PT ever was.

She's always, always on about negotiations, even in the films.

Again, the key here is knowing there's something to negotiate. Without that, it's too easy to dismiss Padme as a weepy bleeding heart rather than a smart lady who is onto something.

He said "the Republic will be reorganized into the first Galactic Empire for a safe and secure society." I'm sure they thought policy wise it wouldn't be that different, but they sure knew the autocracy was coming, and welcomed it.

Depends on what everyone assumed "empire" meant. The British Empire was an empire while still being one of the more free societies on the planet at the time, which of course the Star Wars folks wouldn't know about, but it does shows that an empire doesn't need to behave like Nazi Germany. I don't think we've yet seen any compelling evidence about what the common folk thought about any of this, but when we get more details about Separatist grievances, that will most likely give us some indication of which way the writers intend to go. The more valid the grievances, the more lazy, stupid and scared those who are loyal to the Republic will look.

I'd assumed he pinned that decision on someone else after it went wrong. He is a politician after all

He probably tried. That's another little detail they should throw into the story - if his explanation is lame, but he gets away with it, there's more evidence for the "complacency" approach.

They might, except that Palpatine is going to kill them all.

It's easy enough to envision some of them escaping his scythe, if that serves the interests of a good story. I'll wait and see what the writers intend - if they continue the story post-ROTS, which I more than ever think they should. They've demonstrated talent for writing a story at both a kid and grownup level.

Maybe that live-action post-ROTS story that Lucas wanted to do doesn't need a new crop of writers, and doesn't need to be live action either. Both Ahsoka and Boba Fett would be interesting to follow as they mature, and both are wonderfully free from the straightjacket of canon. I can envision that kid of Padme's separatist friend ending up as an Empire officer.

 

[fett51]

If there's no good reason for the war, that should set off alarm bells that would not happen if the Seppys had legitimate grievances. The good guys might not know that Palps was involved, but they should show a good deal more skepticism about the war and behave differently from the start.

The Jedi also know about the corporate aspect, as Obi-wan saw them pulling together on Geonosis. They also think Dooku is a Sith. They see political motive, financial motive, and metaphysical motive for them to be against the Republic. Why should the Jedi suspect the whole faction, from Dooku through rebellious moisture farmers, is a fraud that has been set up to die?

I don't think we've yet seen any compelling evidence about what the common folk thought about any of this, but when we get more details about Separatist grievances, that will most likely give us some indication of which way the writers intend to go.

That's precisely why I mentioned what Anakin said in RotS about Palpatine getting more power meaning less deliberation and more action and making it easier to end the war. I think that's the closest thing to a grassroots opinion we've heard in the whole thing - it's entirely focused on the war and efficacy of the government at winning, which I expect would be the highest concern of most people at the time. The only actual in-universe poll I'm aware of comes from one of the holonet news updates during the first season of clone wars. It gave Palpatine something like an 81% approval rating and the senate like 31%.

It's easy enough to envision some of them escaping his scythe, if that serves the interests of a good story

And then retcon Mon Mothma and the Organas as being secondary in the Rebel hierarchy? You could have some former seps being involved, but having them as the nucleus of the movement isn't canonically possible.

 

[DarthPipes]

I'd assumed he pinned that decision on someone else after it went wrong. He is a politician after all

True but I don't see how he could blame this on anyone else but himself. He was granted "emergency powers" by the Senate and given more and more powers as the war dragged on. Even if he could argue bringing the Zilo beast to Coruscant wasn't his idea, he likely had to sign off on it.

Palpatine had Anakin kill all the Sepertist leaders in ROTS, remember?

I understand the new to take control of the clone army when the found out the Seps have an army of their own. But not to raise the ethical questions is a damning indictment of the Jedi. Wasn't there some reference in the Seasn 2 episode that the clones couldn't have children too?

When you think about it, both The Republic and the Seperatists copped out during the war. The Republic grew their own army of clones while the Seperatists built their own army of droids. They wanted war but they didn't want to suffer some of the consequences. Kind of like the original Star Trek episode A Taste of Armaggedon where the two planets have a computer war in order to avoid the real horror of war (nuclear fallout, famine, destruction, etc.).

 

[Temis the Vorta]

There may be a metaphysical motive but I'm not seeing that level of the conflict dramatized so far. And here's why it's important, in fact, vital: Anakin clearly doesn't give a flip about politics if he defends the Republic without question, yet doesn't think much of democracy. What the heck does he think he's doing? His contradictory statements make sense only if we assume that he's in it for the power and leaves politics to the politicians.

If the main character neither knows nor cares about politics, then it makes no sense for the main conflict to be carried out at the political level. That's why there needs to be two levels to the story. The political level is the secondary level. The metaphysical level is where we get into the interesting stuff: what exactly does it mean on a personal level to be a Force user? How does the experience and the morality change depending on whether you are on the light or dark side? We still don't know for sure whether the dark side is akin to drug addiction, mind control, or both, and to what extent. We still don't know the degree to which using violence pre-disposes you to dark side-ism, if it does at all.

There are so many interesting aspects of this that the series could explore, and clearly the writers need a new stream of content to avoid doing episodes on boring-ass topics like corruption in the import-export sector. There are only so many times you can show an assassin loose in the Senate or clones fighting droids on some exotic world. Now is the time to blow this series wide open and really explore its full potential.

The Jedi may not know Palps is involved, but they've been depicted as being pretty unquestioning about the war - too unquestioning. Hopefully Padme will soon start bringing them around. When her overtures to the Seppys are mysteriously sabotaged, and they will be, she'll put two and two together.

And why wouldn't the survivors of the Republic and Separatists join forces if underneath it all, they basically want the same thing? They would certainly have more values in common than either have with the Empire. As for canon, I'm happy to toss most of it the trash. The only canon I've seen so far that I'd keep are Episodes VI and V, and TCW, to the extent it's been forging new ground.

 

[fett51]

True but I don't see how he could blame this on anyone else but himself. He was granted "emergency powers" by the Senate and given more and more powers as the war dragged on. Even if he could argue bringing the Zilo beast to Coruscant wasn't his idea, he likely had to sign off on it.

I didn't mean to say it wasn't his responsibility, just that I don't think he would have let it come off that way publicly.

The Sep leaders that got killed in RotS were all the corporate ones from AotC. Nute Gunray, Wat Tambor, Poggle etc. The parliament's fate is unknown, as it didn't exist before this episode AFAIK.

Wasn't there some reference in the Seasn 2 episode that the clones couldn't have children too?

You're referring to Cut and his Twi'lek family? The episode guide mentioned he had adopted the kids, but there wasn't anything that said clones can't have kids that I can recall. I think the idea with the droids and clones was not was not only to sanitize the war somewhat, but also to have armies that wouldn't think for themselves or question orders.

How does the experience and the morality change depending on whether you are on the light or dark side? We still don't know for sure whether the dark side is akin to drug addiction, mind control, or both, and to what extent. We still don't know the degree to which using violence pre-disposes you to dark side-ism, if it does at all.

Not directly, but the seeds are there. Sith only care about gaining more power and not losing what they have, and frequently arrive at that point via good intentions (Palps tells Anakin about this directly in RotS, the opera house scene). Sith only really work together to deal with impediments too big to handle alone and turn on each other when that's done (hence the rule of two, touched on in TPM), and their societal philosophy basically boils down to social Darwinism (killing people for failure, only out for individual good). Suffering and death (the result of violence) make the dark side stronger, and just being in a place suffused with the dark side is sometimes enough to crack the resolve of Jedi (Yoda's cave) and tempt them into using their power in a dark way. The dark side also clings to people as it does places (Yoda can sense the dark side in Dooku, among many other examples).

The final piece that I think explains all that is that Sith have abilities Jedi do not, but the reverse is not true. Palpatine addresses this directly when he talks to Anakin about embracing a larger view of the force rather than just the dogmatic narrow view of the Jedi. The Jedi way is all about holding themselves back and avoiding temptation, but the Sith have no such strictures, much as IRL people who are willing to use any method to achieve their goals have an advantage over those who have ethical boundaries. The addictive nature of the dark side is that it is much easier to get what one wants providing one no longer cares about about the consequences their actions have on others, and once someone only cares about themselves, what is there to draw them back?

When her overtures to the Seppys are mysteriously sabotaged, and they will be, she'll put two and two together.

They may've already laid seeds for that: Padme gave her separatist friend's name to Palpatine. Given the only other people who knew were Anakin and Ahsoka, if Bonateri were to have an accident...

 

[Xavier_Storma]

If the war had been about Separatist worlds that wanted to clone people as slaves, and the Republic objected, you'd have a highly visual source of the conflict: the clones and the factories can be shown; the badness of the situation can be dramatized (you can identify with clones who are being oppressed and see them being oppressed); the situation is highly emotional and everyone's emotions can be predicted to flow the same way (sympathy for clones) without anything needing to be simplified to the level of cliche.

That would have been a little too straight forward for my taste. Just like AVATAR, where the plot is served on a silver dish and the audience does not at all has to figure out what is going on.
And it would not have made possible to expand on the stories in the novels, comics, games and now in the TV show.
Evil is at first a faceless entity in the PT, and "taxations", "traderoutes" and economical political matters have led to the downfall of several states throughout history.

 

[DarthPipes]

If the war had been about Separatist worlds that wanted to clone people as slaves, and the Republic objected, you'd have a highly visual source of the conflict: the clones and the factories can be shown; the badness of the situation can be dramatized (you can identify with clones who are being oppressed and see them being oppressed); the situation is highly emotional and everyone's emotions can be predicted to flow the same way (sympathy for clones) without anything needing to be simplified to the level of cliche.

That would have been a little too straight forward for my taste. Just like AVATAR, where the plot is served on a silver dish and the audience does not at all has to figure out what is going on.
And it would not have made possible to expand on the stories in the novels, comics, games and now in the TV show.
Evil is at first a faceless entity in the PT, and "taxations", "traderoutes" and economical political matters have led to the downfall of several states throughout history.

Excellent point, especially about the simplistic Avatar.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Anakin clearly doesn't give a flip about politics if he defends the Republic without question, yet doesn't think much of democracy. What the heck does he think he's doing? His contradictory statements make sense only if we assume that he's in it for the power and leaves politics to the politicians.

If the main character neither knows nor cares about politics, then it makes no sense for the main conflict to be carried out at the political level.

His statements make sense if he's blindly loyal to The Republic. We see this all the time: people who blindly follow, support, and advocate for an organization without ever truly stopping to think too deeply about the purposes of the organization (politicians are only too happy to take advantage of these poor saps). Anakin is very much that kind of person. His contradictory statements prove that he simply doesn't have a clue what "a republic" is supposed to be. And I'm pretty sure that Palpatine is nicely manipulating Anakin's political views in any event.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The parliament's fate is unknown, as it didn't exist before this episode AFAIK.

Good! They're the interesting Seppys. I'd be happy never to see Nute Gunray (is that the stupidest character name ever invented or what? I can barely stand to type it ) et al ever again. They add nothing to the story (other than as plot devices but we don't need to see plot devices on an ongoing basis).

That would have been a little too straight forward for my taste. Just like AVATAR, where the plot is served on a silver dish and the audience does not at all has to figure out what is going on.

Well, I agree about Avatar, but I guess I lack any faith that the moral implications of the clones will ever be explored. That would go beyond characterizing the Republic as flawed-but-salvageable (which I think is the idea...?) and push it into terra incognito, as a society that has no right to lay any claim to the audience's sympathy (and renders all political metaphors moot).

When you think about it, both The Republic and the Seperatists copped out during the war. The Republic grew their own army of clones while the Seperatists built their own army of droids.

Absolutely! And that's where I've gotten the sense that neither side has a society worth fighting for, or a viewpoint worth defending, so that I'm completely at a loss what everyone thinks they're fighting for? Just an empty shell? Power for its own sake? The Jedi and Senators like Padme and Bail seem to think it's about more than that, and now we have Separatists who appear to be in it for more than just a crass power-play or money.

It's completely bizarre to see a society where its capital alone has a "trillion" citizens (right?) yet they can't cobble together enough troops to fight one of the battles we've seen depicted, where there are maybe several thousand droids and clones. It gives me the impression that neither side is worth rooting for. If they're so degenerate that they won't fight for their way of life, I'm rooting for Palps.

I think the idea with the droids and clones was not was not only to sanitize the war somewhat, but also to have armies that wouldn't think for themselves or question orders.

Any cause worth fighting for should be able to inspire troops to fight for it without having to manufacture mindless cogs as cannon fodder. If they can't do that, then they have nothing worth fighting for to begin with (unless we're just talking about a corrupt elite trying to hang onto money and power).

If Lucas needed to sanitize the battles for the kiddies, it would have made more sense for both sides to be using largely robotic troops for truly massive scale battles, millions of combatants, controlled by troops from the Republic or Separatist worlds, who might number in the hundreds of thousands simply because that's the number of personnel you need for such massive battles, but who would be largely insulated from the worst of the fighting. If an excuse is needed for the Clone Wars label, have the bad guys use some clones.

"taxations", "traderoutes" and economical political matters have led to the downfall of several states throughout history.

Which doesn't automatically make them interesting topics for a fictional story, particularly not one like Star Wars, which is derived from fast-paced, broadly-drawn pulp sci fi in the Buck Rogers/Flash Gordon tradition, crossed with mythology/fairy tale. I don't mind if Lucas wants to get more ambitious and expand the story into new realms as long as he comes up with something good, but that's where the story has been faltering. Star Trek is good at delving into politics without boring us, but even Star Trek avoids dreary topics like taxation and economics in general (except with the Ferengi and even there, it's usually treated as a joke).

We see this all the time: people who blindly follow, support, and advocate for an organization without ever truly stopping to think too deeply about the purposes of the organization (politicians are only too happy to take advantage of these poor saps). Anakin is very much that kind of person. His contradictory statements prove that he simply doesn't have a clue what "a republic" is supposed to be.

This is probably the missing piece of the puzzle that confused me in the movies - Anakin's inherent personality type is the adrenaline-junky type that doesn't care about politics. That's a different motivation than the impression I got from the movies (someone who is so psychologically damaged that evil becomes attractive and too stupid to know what's going on). This Anakin's personality is probably inborn - some people are just like that, doesn't mean they had a deprived childhood, and it's not even a "bad" quality in and of itself. And it's also not stupidity - he just has different interests.

The dialogue where Anakin expresses political ideas in the movies confused me because without any follow-up, I thought I was supposed to take that at face value, that he'd actually put some thought into what he was saying. Now I see he was just spouting because although he doesn't care about or understand politics, he's married to a politician and spends time around people at high levels of political power, and probably thinks he should care about such matters. It's simple self-delusion.

 

[Xavier_Storma]

Concerning the moral implications about the Clones... let's wait and see. There have been hints in the series towards this topic ('The Hidden Enemy' from season 1, 'The Deserter' from Season 2). After the last episode 'Heroes on Both Sides' everything is possible again (I thought the series went down in season 3 until last episode, which really was a redemption in my eyes).

 

[fett51]

Any cause worth fighting for should be able to inspire troops to fight for it without having to manufacture mindless cogs as cannon fodder. If they can't do that, then they have nothing worth fighting for to begin with (unless we're just talking about a corrupt elite trying to hang onto money and power).

True, however would you rather fly combat missions in Afghanistan or remote pilot a UAV from halfway across the planet? People may be willing to fight, but they're never going to want to risk their lives when they can have a bunch of droids/clones they view as expendable do it for them.

More relevantly to the plot, clones I would say were critical to Palpatine's plan. Normal soldiers would likely have developed loyalty to the Jedi officers they served with, questioned Order 66, maybe outright rebelled over it. For both sides, normal soldiers also bring the cost of war home for parts of the galaxy away from the front lines, and would likely generate a desire to end it, and that's against Palpatine's interest in extending the war indefinitely.

Edit: As for why the Republic went for clones over droids, we're told, and shown repeatedly clones are superior. Palpatine obviously has no respect for life and if he can sell the populace on the idea that clones are basically just organic droids, he doesn't have a political problem either. As for citizens of the Republic questioning the ethics of the army anyway, how many people in our society question what kind of conditions the goods they buy are they're being manufactured in, nevermind start looking for alternatives if they get an answer they don't like? Convenience is an extremely powerful motivator to not ask questions.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

True, however would you rather fly combat missions in Afghanistan or remote pilot a UAV from halfway across the planet?

People who are actually in the military would probably rather fly combat missions - sure, it's dangerous, but do people really volunteer for the military so they can sit behind a desk? I haven't gotten that impression at all.

If you want to have a safe desk job, why join the military in the first place? The Jedi don't have safe desk jobs, so apparently the risk-taking life appeals to them. Why is it only them? Why don't the Republic and the Separatists alike have people clamoring to risk their necks to defend their ideals? You don't need to be a Force user to have that impetus. Out of the zillions of people in the galaxy, there should be more than enough to fill a military on both sides.

More relevantly to the plot, clones I would say were critical to Palpatine's plan.

If Palps can get businessmen (the Trade Federation) on his side, he should be able to subvert the military without the military needing to be brainwashed. A pre-existing Republic military would be resentful of the Jedi coming along and tromping on their turf, even if it were justified by an emergency situation that the Jedi could be genuinely helpful in. It could just be an ambitious segment of military officers, maybe some of them flat-out jealous that the Jedi are famous and can do cool stuff.

There are ways to write the same story and have the same things happen in the end without the probably-inadvertent moral issues raised by the clones (well written stories shouldn't have inadvertent anything about them - it should all be under the writer's control) or the contrivance of Order 66 (I dislike plot devices like that - they're just too easy to write, and I like to see writers work harder to impress me).

 

[fett51]

If you want to have a safe desk job, why join the military in the first place? The Jedi don't have safe desk jobs, so apparently the risk-taking life appeals to them. Why is it only them? Why don't the Republic and the Separatists alike have people clamoring to risk their necks to defend their ideals?

That's assuming people joining the army during a war would be career military. The factions would presumably need a draft to recruit enough people to match the number of clones/droids they could have, and even if they did get a boost from wartime recruitment, most of their armies would be in the fight just to win the war. We've seen some career military (Yularen, Trench, the Sep commander of the Ryloth fleet and the Republic Admiral in the Boba Fett episodes spring to mind), but the draftees certainly and likely some of the people signing up out of patriotism would be content to hide behind expendables, as they would not perceive their involvement as being necessary.

I can't speak to what Lucas was thinking with the clone army, I don't think he's ever said. He obviously doesn't have a problem with all the clone individualism in TCW, though, and the armor customizations and such are even in Ep 3, so he can't have been unaware, I expect he just didn't make an issue of it because it has little to do with Anakin's story. That it says disturbing things about Palpatine and what he's doing to the Republic I'm sure is entirely deliberate, it's the Jedi's lack of comment that bothers me, they know better, Yoda even said way back in the first episode the three clones with him all felt different in the force. Why they aren't going into this in TCW is beyond me, possible they're saving all the "Republic is turning into the Empire" stuff for later.

FTR, There was no pre-existing military, the Republic relied totally on the Jedi. There were systems and sectors that had defense fleets (which is where the career military people came from) but the Republic as a whole had been at peace for 1,000 years as of Episode 1.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

the draftees certainly and likely some of the people signing up out of patriotism would be content to hide behind expendables, as they would not perceive their involvement as being necessary.

Since Jedi can leave the Order if they choose, they are staying on to defend the Republic, despite being on the front lines and at risk of dying. Why assume they are the only people in the Republic willing to do this? Even if only a small percentage were willing, it would be enough to fill the ranks we've seen occupied by clones. The Kamino facilities are not gargantuan, and the Republic occupies a good part of (most of?) and entire galaxy. The number of regular people willing to do exactly what the clones do, should easily outnumber the clones.

And being able to round out your military with droids and other technology (such as drones that don't even come up to droid level in intelligence) means you'd never have to resort to a draft. I can envision an army of flesh-and-blood non-drones who of course don't risk their necks foolishly, but only to the extent that we've seen from Jedi and clones, and who behave just as bravely for their ideals, but unlike the clones (and maybe unlike the Jedi), they've made this choice entirely of their own free will and after having seen and experienced alternatives, which makes their choice all the braver.

Oooh, just thought of something interesting - what if a Jedi honestly believed the Separatists had a valid viewpoint and wanted to fight for them. That person wouldn't be a Sith, since their intentions would be for the good, as they see it.

I expect he just didn't make an issue of it because it has little to do with Anakin's story.

It could have a lot to do with it if, for instance, the Republic's use of clones becomes yet another sore point for the Separatists - perhaps indicative of the same disregard for individual liberties in the pursuit of money and power, that the Seppys object to in the Republic. The Senate, genuinely trying to reduce what they think are legitimate complaints, recommends converting from clones to a regular army (which is do-able but can happen only at the expense of military efficiency).

We both know what Anakin's going to think of this: obvious treason. If Palps plays the poor, beleagured soul (Look, Anakin, even the Senate is turning treasonous! Am I alone in my quest to save the Republic? Woe is me!), Anakin will fall right into his clutches.

Or to put it another way, if TCW is Anakin's story, then every element in the story should have something to do with Anakin, or at least not distract from it by suggesting unintentional things.

Yoda even said way back in the first episode the three clones with him all felt different in the force.

I'd forgotten about that! Well, this series has made intelligent additions that improve the story before now, so maybe we'll see the Jedi starting to balk in regards to the clones. That would be a good element to further Anakin's fall to the dark side because anything that smacks of defeatism is going to set him off.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

^ That's how the Jedi saw Dooku "He's a political idealist, not a murderer." Too bad Dooku's movie portrayal was a bit too black-and-white to really explore any idealism he might have had (as it was, he comes off as just as power-hungry as Sidious).

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I've just assumed that Dooku is in it for the power, and doesn't know or care about anything else. What possible ideals could he have? Does he even care about politics or is he just drunk on the dark side?

That's how the Jedi saw Dooku "He's a political idealist, not a murderer."

Was that line from the PT or TCW?

 

[DarKush]

^
That's from a scene early in AOTC (PT). I think there is some hints that Dooku actually was a disaffected Jedi, who did have concerns about the Jedi and the Republic before he turned to the dark side. I also think, from my reading of ROTS novelization, that Dooku genuinely believed that a revived Sith Order or Sith Army would be an agent of reform, of sorts. I'm not sure he was in it just for the power. Coming from an aristrocratic background, he had wealth and power already. I think there were hints that he was in it for something more, however he is often portrayed as a 2-D villain.

I wish at least that Dooku had been in TPM and on the Jedi Council, where he could've been a dissenting voice and backed up Qui Gon and Anakin's application, a sign of his independent, contrarian streak.

It's hard to square him being an idealist when he hires an assassin, a bumbling one at that, and hangs out with central casting bad guys.

Dooku and Maul really got the short ends of the Sith stick in terms of character development. But at least Dooku gets more facetime courtesy of the Clone Wars cartoon and other CW-related works. It's unfortunate that the increased facetime probably still hasn't led to enough development on his part.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Since the Republic has never been convincingly been portrayed as in need of reform until now (I guess that was the reason for the corruption-centric episodes we were treated to - which still far way way short of proving that it's a systemic problem, given the sheer vastness of a galaxy-spanning Republic), then even if Dooku was better developed in the movies, it would still be impossible to tell whether his quest for reform was sincere or just an excuse for wanting power.

Same problem as with Anakin's political rant in AOTC - we didn't have the necessary context for knowing whether to take such things at face value. Here's hoping the show can continue to correct these problems.