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Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

Bringing up the question of equal treatment of the sexes when it comes to death and resurrection is fair, but I think the greater percentage of male characters returning from the dead is a function of Trek having had more male characters die than female characters. Off the top of my head, I can only think of Yar, Jadzia, and Janeway. And, arguably, Yar and Jadzia have been been undermined by "partial" resurrections, introductions of new characters to whom the audience has the same or similar attachments -- Yar may be dead, but Denise Crosby came back as Sela multiple times; Jadzia may be gone, but Ezri, Dax's new host showed up immediately thereafter.

I think that maintaining verisimilitude by not bringing any more dead characters back is more important, and that gender equality should be pursued by how the fiction depicts the characters who are alive.

You are not even close, and counting a new character as an old one just because she is played by the same actress is misleading.

The numbers are 6 male deaths or 20% of the male main characters have died. All have been returned to a living state in one media form or another, including Data who is alive and well in the comics. All got to return as themselves not as some reoccurring Romulan villain.

Four females have died or 25% of the female main characters, you can skew that a little with the double death of Yar but because you wanted to count Sela as a return, I can simply cancel one death against the one return. So of these, none has returned. But given that you want to count Ezri as a returned Jadzia, I could let you have one half of a return.

It doesn't matter how many more men die than women when they all get to come back but none of the females are allowed to. All males returning and no females returning is an imbalance, unfair, and is an inequality.
 
In hindsight, I guess it isn't that surprising that even when Janeway is actually coming back, Brit still would rather angrily accuse people of being sexist than, I dunno, be happy about getting what she wanted, or something.
 
Bringing up the question of equal treatment of the sexes when it comes to death and resurrection is fair, but I think the greater percentage of male characters returning from the dead is a function of Trek having had more male characters die than female characters. Off the top of my head, I can only think of Yar, Jadzia, and Janeway. And, arguably, Yar and Jadzia have been been undermined by "partial" resurrections, introductions of new characters to whom the audience has the same or similar attachments -- Yar may be dead, but Denise Crosby came back as Sela multiple times; Jadzia may be gone, but Ezri, Dax's new host showed up immediately thereafter.

I think that maintaining verisimilitude by not bringing any more dead characters back is more important, and that gender equality should be pursued by how the fiction depicts the characters who are alive.

You are not even close, and counting a new character as an old one just because she is played by the same actress is misleading.

It's also more than Kirk or Trip ever got canonically.

The numbers are 6 male deaths
?

Are we going by canon or are we including non-canonical death stories? If we're going by canon, I count 4: Kirk, Spock, Data, and Trip. (This is ignoring one-time-only "minor" deaths, like O'Brien or Janeway dying and being replaced by time travel shennanigans in "Visionary" and "Year of Hell," respectively.)

or 20% of the male main characters have died. All have been returned to a living state in one media form or another, including Data who is alive and well in the comics.
If you're going to hold Data's resurrection in the Countdown miniseries which is not in continuity with the "Destinyverse" novels, then you should credit Pocket Books for featuring Janeway still being alive and having never died at all in the Online-verse book The Needs of the Many.

ETA: Seriously, which continuities are you counting and not counting? Because I'm aware of at least two continuities in which Janeway is alive and well and only one in which she's dead. End ETA.

All got to return as themselves not as some reoccurring Romulan villain.
Actually, there's a strong argument to be made that B-4 at the end of NEM was the same situation as Sela: A separate but nearly identical character played by the same actor, intended as an emotional surrogate for the "lost" character.

Four females have died or 25% of the female main characters,
This is a strong argument that canonical Star Trek failed at gender parity in its casting, with which I would agree.

It doesn't matter how many more men die than women when they all get to come back
Actually, Scotty died just last year in the novel Indistinguishable From Magic, and I damn well hope he stays dead, too. And similarly, I'm glad that the "Destinyverse" novels have kept Data dead and not allowed him to come back via B-4 the way the Countdown comic did -- and that they've also gotten rid of B-4 was anything more than an incredibly minor character. The "Destinyverse" novels have kept both Scotty and Data dead, so you should factor that into your equation.

but none of the females are allowed to.
"Allowed?" What? There's a good chance Janeway is coming back. When you say "allowed," are you referring to my personal opinion that Janeway shouldn't coming back?

'Cos if you are, let's specify: I'm just some dude on the Internet. I don't get to decide who's "allowed" to come back or not. I do think that Janeway should stay dead in the "Destinyverse" novels. I also think that Kirk should stay dead, and Scotty should stay dead, and Data should stay dead, and Duffy should stay dead, and Zelik Leybenzon should stay dead, and Jaza Najem should stay dead. And I think that at this point, it's ridiculous to see Sulu, Chekov, and McCoy still running around, that they ought to kick the bucket at some point.
 
In hindsight, I guess it isn't that surprising that even when Janeway is actually coming back, Brit still would rather angrily accuse people of being sexist than, I dunno, be happy about getting what she wanted, or something.
Yeah, I'm stating to think at least some of these Janeway people just can't be happy.
 
the Borg Queen did die on the Cube in BOBW, but since she's not exactly a normal mortal being since she exists as a personality in a hive-network of a cybernetic organism, she's not only a different kettle of fish, she's a special kettle of special fish.
 
You're also making the assumption that if Janeway comes back permanently she'll be rejoining her crew. Why? Death changes people, after all ...

I just hope that if this is Janeway's return that it is done in an interesting way, though seeing Janeway as a Q would be rather cool in my opinion.:)

Just to add my two cents here - what if Janeway DOES return, but rejoins Starfleet in the AQ instead of staying with Voyager in the DQ?

Tuvok does just fine on Titan - no reason Janeway can't do the same as part of the TNG or DS9 post-Typhon Pact books :techman:

Seems to me this'll make everyone happy ;)
 
don't get me started on lost I hate that show so much.

How many seasons did you force yourself to watch to make sure you really hated it? ;)

Janeway sells books. PB has figured that out in the last three years.

Dead Janeway sells books too.

including Data who is alive and well in the comics.

One mini-series.

Admiral Janeway herself is still alive (or resurrected) in the novelization of "Star Trek Online".
 
the Borg Queen did die on the Cube in BOBW, but since she's not exactly a normal mortal being since she exists as a personality in a hive-network of a cybernetic organism, she's not only a different kettle of fish, she's a special kettle of special fish.

Did the Borg Queen die? Are we sure she didn't get off somewhere between Wold 359 and Earth? If she managed to download her consciousness elsewhere before her physical form was destroyed then she wasn't REALLY killed was she? Just like she wasn't REALLY killed during First Contact or Endgame, merely set-back. If we can respect her ability to survive by means of technology, why can't we respect Janeway or Sisko's ability to survive by means of aliens who have abilities and technology indistiguishable from magic?

Furthermore, since when Janeway died she was the Borg queen, how do we know her consciousness wasn't downloaded before she died and she was brought back in another Borg form? If that happened, perhaps she later became part of the Caeliar Gestalt. Voyager is looking for remnants of the Borg or Caeliar, perhaps they find it in the form of Janeway.

Speculation is free. And I don't suspect Beyer will do any of these things. She is a creative and original author, I have faith that whatever she is doing, and whether it involves Janeway or not, Eternal Tide will be a wonderful story. But we have to be open to the possibilities. Mankind has conquered light and time barriers in Star Trek; is breaking a death barrier that far fetched?
 
I'm not opposed to a main character dying as a creative decision, but in the case of Janeway I always hated that it had to happen in one of the worst Star Trek novels I ever read. If Janeway comes back in this new novel I am very excited and I'm sure it will be handled quite well. I never read any of the Christie Golden relaunch novels, but I know the general consensus is they were pretty bad and the first Beyer novel took the task of sweeping them under the rug. I'm all for the same thing being done to Before Dishonor. Any meaning the death of a character like Janeway could have had was cheapened by happening as part of that story. In my opinion of course.
 
^I don't know if the general consensus on the Golden novels is that negative, since I gather they sold quite well. Sometimes a vocal minority can seem like a majority if the views on the other side aren't expressed as strongly. There are certainly people who like them just fine (myself included), and I've seen positive reviews of them over the years, but the positive responses don't seem as passionate as the negative ones. So the people with negative reactions are more strongly motivated to express their opinions more vocally and more frequently, and that gives the impression that the negative views dominate.
 
I detested the way Janeway was killed off, but I think Kirsten Beyer took that thread and used it as a springboard to write one of my favourite Star Trek novels, and by far one of the best Voyager stories I've ever read. IMHO of course. :)

Anyway, I'm thrilled that she *may* be coming back, and ecstatic that Ms Beyer is the one handling the story.
 
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^I don't know if the general consensus on the Golden novels is that negative, since I gather they sold quite well. Sometimes a vocal minority can seem like a majority if the views on the other side aren't expressed as strongly. There are certainly people who like them just fine (myself included), and I've seen positive reviews of them over the years, but the positive responses don't seem as passionate as the negative ones. So the people with negative reactions are more strongly motivated to express their opinions more vocally and more frequently, and that gives the impression that the negative views dominate.

I've had this discussion with Christopher before. My opinion of them is not high, but Christophers opinion is always worth taking note of.

You could do worse than read them yourself and make up your own mind...
 
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Did the Borg Queen die?

It's possible that she escaped, but Picard implies that she did indeed die in orbit of Earth, and the Queen does not contradict him.

If she managed to download her consciousness elsewhere before her physical form was destroyed then she wasn't REALLY killed was she? Just like she wasn't REALLY killed during First Contact or Endgame, merely set-back.

Well, she was "really" killed in First Contact and "Endgame." The novels have established that when a Queen dies, something called the Royal Protocol is uploaded into the mind of a compatible female drone, whose body is then altered to serve as the next Queen; with the Royal Protocol loaded, they assume a personality identical to their predecessor. Think of it as being like the Weyouns--each Weyoun really did die, but was replaced by a separate person who was mentally identical.

Furthermore, since when Janeway died she was the Borg queen, how do we know her consciousness wasn't downloaded before she died and she was brought back in another Borg form?

Because the Supercube was definitively established to have been disconnected from the rest of the Collective. And because it was definitively established that she had died, but that Lady Q had preserved her consciousness for some reason.
 
the Borg Queen did die on the Cube in BOBW, but since she's not exactly a normal mortal being since she exists as a personality in a hive-network of a cybernetic organism, she's not only a different kettle of fish, she's a special kettle of special fish.

Did the Borg Queen die? Are we sure she didn't get off somewhere between Wold 359 and Earth? If she managed to download her consciousness elsewhere before her physical form was destroyed then she wasn't REALLY killed was she? Just like she wasn't REALLY killed during First Contact or Endgame, merely set-back. If we can respect her ability to survive by means of technology, why can't we respect Janeway or Sisko's ability to survive by means of aliens who have abilities and technology indistiguishable from magic?

Well, it is plausible she stopped the Cube and got off, given the later appearance of W359 assimilatees in the DQ. But, yes, you're point that she didn't die in FC is true. Endgame, i would say, was at least Author Intent that she died.

Sisko didn't die. He was teleported out of danger.

Furthermore, since when Janeway died she was the Borg queen, how do we know her consciousness wasn't downloaded before she died and she was brought back in another Borg form? If that happened, perhaps she later became part of the Caeliar Gestalt. Voyager is looking for remnants of the Borg or Caeliar, perhaps they find it in the form of Janeway.

I'd say that the end scene with Q would clearly indicate she died.

Speculation is free. And I don't suspect Beyer will do any of these things. She is a creative and original author, I have faith that whatever she is doing, and whether it involves Janeway or not, Eternal Tide will be a wonderful story. But we have to be open to the possibilities. Mankind has conquered light and time barriers in Star Trek; is breaking a death barrier that far fetched?

Well, she won't now, cuz you've just psoted story ideas. Well done. now, where's the mods?
 
I don't think pointing to a prior Trek occurrence like the Borg Queen's resurrections and saying "something like that again" counts as a story idea.
 
MatthiasRussell; said:
Furthermore, since when Janeway died she was the Borg queen, how do we know her consciousness wasn't downloaded before she died and she was brought back in another Borg form? If that happened, perhaps she later became part of the Caeliar Gestalt. Voyager is looking for remnants of the Borg or Caeliar, perhaps they find it in the form of Janeway.

Now that's a possibility I hadn't considered. How very interesting.

Speculation is free. And I don't suspect Beyer will do any of these things. She is a creative and original author, I have faith that whatever she is doing, and whether it involves Janeway or not, Eternal Tide will be a wonderful story. But we have to be open to the possibilities. Mankind has conquered light and time barriers in Star Trek; is breaking a death barrier that far fetched?

I agree. Beyer has done a fantastic job with the Voyager relaunch thus far and I have a good feeling that whatever story she decides to tell in The Eternal Tide will be great as well, regardless of whether or not Janeway returns. :)

Just to add my two cents here - what if Janeway DOES return, but rejoins Starfleet in the AQ instead of staying with Voyager in the DQ?

Tuvok does just fine on Titan - no reason Janeway can't do the same as part of the TNG or DS9 post-Typhon Pact books :techman:

Seems to me this'll make everyone happy ;)

I'd be happy with that, and I think it would be interesting to see how Janeway would approach something like the Typhon Pact and the events that have transpired in those books (which I still have to read...).

Honestly, if and when Janeway is brought back I would just like it to be done in a way that hasn't been considered by fandom. I'd like to be surprised by how she returns (if that indeed transpires).
 
If Janeway comes back I'd only buy this book if it finished with her dying again and a Hirogen skull-f**king her corpse.

If it features that scene I'll buy two copies.
 
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