Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 2x10 - "Hegemony"

[Dukhat]

This is word salad, isn't it?

Not my problem what you think it is.

Was TNG supposed to invalidate TOS? I thought the intent was just to ignore it. TNG had McCoy in its first episode and referenced Kirk's Enterprise in "The Naked Now", its second ever episode, but as far as I'm aware the idea was something along the lines of "TOS kind of happened, but it was a long time ago and we're not really going to bring it up".

More like, “McCoy, Spock, Kirk, the Enterprise-nil, etc. still exist, but you should probably ignore what you saw of them on screen back in 1966.” Pretty much the same rationale Roddenberry had with TMP.

(Come to think of it, that’s pretty much the rationale of CBS/Paramount with DSC/SNW. Let’s see if it goes over as well as it did for Roddenberry.)

 

[fireproof78]

The Kelvin universe movies feel the same too. But they're not.

But, they're deliberately told otherwise.

This way is taking the TMP approach. TMP is the same continuity as TOS, as is TWOK etc. I don't see the issue here. It's not "ignore what you saw." It's more like "Here's another way to view it."

 

[Dukhat]

But, they're deliberately told otherwise.

This way is taking the TMP approach. TMP is the same continuity as TOS, as is TWOK etc. I don't see the issue here. It's not "ignore what you saw." It's more like "Here's another way to view it."

And again, you are welcome to view it that way. I do not, and I find that I enjoy it better if I don't try and pretend that it takes place in the same continuity.

 

[Sci]

It's actually the "Prime" universe (with quotes), as "prime" is just a buzzword these days that means "we're gonna make everything look different and have the characters look and act nothing like what they looked and acted like before, and have lots and lots of continuity problems which we are very much aware of but we're making them anyway, while at the same time saying that it's all exactly the same. But don't you dare call it a reboot! It takes place in the same universe! Really, it does!"

AKA, what Star Trek has ALWAYS DONE with its discontinuities EXCEPT with the Bad Robot Productions films.

Actually, it's done the opposite.

TMP depicts the Klingons as looking completely differently from TOS. No explanation given. They also depict the design aesthetic of the entire Starfleet as different from the Starfleet of TOS. No explanation given. Spock goes from openly hitting on women in "The Cloud Minders" to trying to purge himself of all emotion whatsoever -- no explanation given. The producers of TMP are just like, "We're gonna make the Klingons and Starfleet and Spock look and act nothing like what they looked and acted like before, and have lots and lots of continuity problems which we are very much aware of but we're making them anyway, while at the same time saying that it's all exactly the same."

TMP, TWOK, and TNG were all meant to be reboots by the people who created them,

No they were not. They were always conceived of as being set in the same universe as the prior productions.

Except none of those things actually happened. Both the fanbase and the producers of Star Trek through the Berman years have treated all of these things as the same continuity, despite the intent of their creators. But CBSTrek is saying that DSC is also part of that same continuity (instead of intending it to be a reboot/reimagining) while going out of their way to make the show look and feel as little as possible like what came before. That's the opposite.

No, it's not. It's the same thing. Paramount said that TMP was the same continuity as TOS while going out of their way to make it look and feel as little like TOS as possible. Paramount said TWOK was in the same continuity as TMP while going out of their way to make it look and feel as little like TMP as possible. Paramount said TNG took place in the same continuity as TWOK and TMP and TOS, while going out of their way to make it look and feel as little like TWOK, TMP, and TOS as possible.

This is what Star Trek has always done.

 

[Dukhat]

TMP depicts the Klingons as looking completely differently from TOS. No explanation given. They also depict the design aesthetic of the entire Starfleet as different from the Starfleet of TOS. No explanation given. Spock goes from openly hitting on women in "The Cloud Minders" to trying to purge himself of all emotion whatsoever -- no explanation given. The producers of TMP are just like, "We're gonna make the Klingons and Starfleet and Spock look and act nothing like what they looked and acted like before, and have lots and lots of continuity problems which we are very much aware of but we're making them anyway, while at the same time saying that it's all exactly the same."



No they were not. They were always conceived of as being set in the same universe as the prior productions.



No, it's not. It's the same thing. Paramount said that TMP was the same continuity as TOS while going out of their way to make it look and feel as little like TOS as possible. Paramount said TWOK was in the same continuity as TMP while going out of their way to make it look and feel as little like TMP as possible. Paramount said TNG took place in the same continuity as TWOK and TMP and TOS, while going out of their way to make it look and feel as little like TWOK, TMP, and TOS as possible.

This is what Star Trek has always done.

I'm not talking about Paramount. I'm talking about the people who created those shows and films. Roddenberry wanted to ignore the events of TOS when he produced TMP. Harve Bennett and Nicholas Meyer wanted to ignore the events of TMP when they produced TWOK. And Roddenberry (for the second time) wanted to ignore TOS in favor of his newer, better Star Trek, when he executive-produced TNG.

 

[Sci]

I'm not talking about Paramount. I'm talking about the people who created those shows and films. Roddenberry wanted to ignore the events of TOS when he produced TMP. Harve Bennett and Nicholas Meyer wanted to ignore the events of TMP when they produced TWOK. And Roddenberry (for the second time) wanted to ignore TOS in favor of his newer, better Star Trek, when he executive-produced TNG.

There's nothing in the text or paratext to indicate that, and even if there were, the actual content of the films treats discontinuities the same way as DIS treats discontinuities: ignoring them while treating it all as one consistent universe.

 

[Dukhat]

There's nothing in the text or paratext to indicate that, and even if there were, the actual content of the films treats discontinuities the same way as DIS treats discontinuities: ignoring them while treating it all as one consistent universe.

If you say so. I stand by what I wrote.

 

[fireproof78]

There's nothing in the text or paratext to indicate that, and even if there were, the actual content of the films treats discontinuities the same way as DIS treats discontinuities: ignoring them while treating it all as one consistent universe.

Exactly so.

And if not, then why treat Trek as one big universe? Apparently that was so important that Trek continues onward with this same assumption. It's strange to me to discard it so cavalierly.

 

[Macintosh]

More like, “McCoy, Spock, Kirk, the Enterprise-nil, etc. still exist, but you should probably ignore what you saw of them on screen back in 1966.” Pretty much the same rationale Roddenberry had with TMP.

Oh yeah, I see what you mean. Was TNG: "Relics" the first time that TOS was shown in-universe to have actually looked like TOS after all? Even then SNW is making that situation somewhat fluid...

 

[cooleddie74]

Kirk has a model of the TOS Enterprise in his quarters in TUC, sitting on a shelf above his desk with the framed photo of David Marcus. The sixth movie was made a year before "Relics(TNG)."

 

[cooleddie74]

 

[Farscape One]

Kirk has a model of the TOS Enterprise in his quarters in TUC, sitting on a shelf above his desk with the framed photo of David Marcus. The sixth movie was made a year before "Relics(TNG)."

Indeed. A subtle showing of how much both meant to him... and the personal sacrifices he made to bring back Spock.

 

[cooleddie74]

Which is pretty much what I just said.

1991 - 1992.

 

[cooleddie74]

And while we're at it the TOS ship is shown on the rec deck alcove wall of historical ships named Enterprise in TMP, so for all the theories that the TMP aesthetic was "what things more or less always looked like" Gene depicted his TV design as canon. So, yeah, TMP retconned nothing about the TOS ship.

 

[Dukhat]

And while we're at it the TOS ship is shown on the rec deck alcove wall of historical ships named Enterprise in TMP, so for all the theories that the TMP aesthetic was "what things more or less always looked like" Gene depicted his TV design as canon. So, yeah, TMP retconned nothing about the TOS ship.

Which is why, despite Roddenberry's intentions, later productions treated TMP as part of the overall continuity of TOS-TNG.

Oh yeah, I see what you mean. Was TNG: "Relics" the first time that TOS was shown in-universe to have actually looked like TOS after all? Even then SNW is making that situation somewhat fluid...

I think so (other than the aforementioned photo of the TOS Enterprise in the rec deck of the refit in TMP.) Every other instance of 'past' Trek shown in TNG while Roddenberry was exec producer was from the TMP era, such as the monster maroons and the use of the refit Enterprise, Reliant, Excelsior, Grissom, K'T'inga, and BoP filming models, and stock footage from said films such as Spacedock, Starfleet Command, etc. Roddenberry wanted to disown the films as well, but budgetary considerations necessitated the reuse of the movie assets.

 

[jackoverfull]

there be wales there!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Can't be Wales. That screencap has vowels.

Spock goes from openly hitting on women in "The Cloud Minders" to trying to purge himself of all emotion whatsoever -- no explanation given.

Actually, they kinda did give an explanation, when McCoy mentions the kolinahr ritual. Although that is indeed something made up for TMP (it was never mentioned in TOS that I'm aware of).

And while it is kinda vague, TMP does sorta give the impression that kolinahr isn't exactly something that all Vulcans do. Sonak, for example, probably wasn't a kolinahr student, as he wouldn't be serving in Starfleet if he had been...plus Sonak did seem a bit irritated at Kirk.

 

[Sci]

^ Can't be Wales. That screencap has vowels.



Actually, they kinda did give an explanation, when McCoy mentions the kolinahr ritual. Although that is indeed something made up for TMP (it was never mentioned in TOS that I'm aware of).

And while it is kinda vague, TMP does sorta give the impression that kolinahr isn't exactly something that all Vulcans do. Sonak, for example, probably wasn't a kolinahr student, as he wouldn't be serving in Starfleet if he had been...plus Sonak did seem a bit irritated at Kirk.

That's not an explanation though, that's just a fancy in-universe name for what I already said he was doing: "trying to purge himself of all emotions."

We get no explanation for why Spock went from being comfortable enough with his emotions that he's trading barbs with McCoy and showing affection to Kirk and hitting on Droxine, to wanting to quit Starfleet and undergo Kolinahr. TMP just presents us with Spock, behaving very differently than he had before, with no explanation or acknowledgment that his behavior was not consistent with the show.

 

[fireproof78]

Actually, they kinda did give an explanation, when McCoy mentions the kolinahr ritual. Although that is indeed something made up for TMP (it was never mentioned in TOS that I'm aware of).

Except, there's no indication of why Spock would want to do so.

Imagine going form "Turnabout Intruder" to "The Motion Picture" with zero clue to why Spock is indifferent to his shipmates, and isn't even on the Enterprise! Kirk isn't even talking to Spock about the emergency. What the hell happened while the Enterprise took 18 months of a refit? Spock decided, "Eh, humanity is overrated and McCoy was right."

 

[Sci]

Except, there's no indication of why Spock would want to do so.

Imagine going form "Turnabout Intruder" to "The Motion Picture" with zero clue to why Spock is indifferent to his shipmates, and isn't even on the Enterprise! Kirk isn't even talking to Spock about the emergency. What the hell happened while the Enterprise took 18 months of a refit? Spock decided, "Eh, humanity is overrated and McCoy was right."

Yep. TMP is basically like, "We're gonna make Spock look and act nothing like what he looked and acted like before, and have lots and lots of continuity problems which we are very much aware of but we're making them anyway, while at the same time saying that it's all exactly the same. But don't you dare call it a reboot! It takes place in the same universe! Really, it does!"

Because that's how Star Trek has always handled inconsistencies.