Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 1x10 - "A Quality of Mercy"

[Sci]

Is the series FINALLY through with exploring Pike's future?

I don't know -- if you knew the date you were destined to suffer a horrifying debilitating injury that, as far as you know, will lead to your inevitable painful death, do you think you would stop worrying about it after a couple months?

I hope so, because it feels to me that the franchise has been beating a dead horse since Season 2 of "Discovery".

"Beating a dead horse" is a funny way of describing a character arc that has encompassed exactly one scene from DIS S2 and two episodes of SNW S1.

SNW is hardly now a fresh show.

Star Trek: Strange New Worlds is three months and three days old.

 

[valden]

It was two amazing episodes. It's still fresh.

episode 9 was pretty mediocre. it was an alien and star trek 2009 rip off. Hammer death was unearned. the dialogue was also pretty bad like Uhura saying ,Team Hemura. Come on, not even CW using that kind of dialogue.

I am sorry but i cannot see how an alien direct rip off is fresh. it is as un-fresh as star trek into darkness ripping of wrath of khan.

episode 10 was slightly better although it is no yesterday enterprise from TNG. Paul Wesley Kirk was pretty bad and Ethan Peck was kind of mixed in the acting when trying to recite Nimoy lines. these two guys got nothing on Pine and Quinto.

The ending also felt kind of weak and abrupt but this seem to be an issue with episodic shows that needs to always stick to that.

 

[valden]

I don't know -- if you knew the date you were destined to suffer a horrifying debilitating injury that, as far as you know, will lead to your inevitable painful death, do you think you would stop worrying about it after a couple months?



"Beating a dead horse" is a funny way of describing a character arc that has encompassed exactly one scene from DIS S2 and two episodes of SNW S1.



Star Trek: Strange New Worlds is three months and three days old.

yeah 3 months and 2 days and yet it has already ripped off many past shows and movies by the last two eipsiodes . SNW is lucky that James Cameron is too rich and too busy and likely does not watch streaming service as he would have sued SNW writers for all those who wander. Alex Kurtzman star trek show need to stop trying to redo other shows/movies in an obvious way. the finale of SNW had some issue similar to the finale of season 2 discovery.

 

[Sci]

episode 9 was pretty mediocre. it was an alien and star trek 2009 rip off.

Pastiches are not rip-offs, and nothing about "All Those Who Wander" was a pastiche of ST09.

Hammer death was unearned.

What, to you, would be an "earned" death?

the dialogue was also pretty bad

The dialogue was fine. You just didn't like that SNW has characters who speak in modern-sounding vernacular instead of using the Berman-era conceit of everyone speaking in formal prescriptivist standard English.

I am sorry but i cannot see how an alien direct rip off is fresh. it is as un-fresh as star trek into darkness ripping of wrath of khan.

1) Star Trek Into Darkness has a plot that's completely different from The Wrath of Khan and its primary thematic conflict (militarism and authoritarianism vs. civil rights and liberties) is completely different from TWOK's primary thematic conflicts (the inevitability of mortality, finding meaning in life, vengeance vs. justice). Into Darkness has one scene that is an homage to TWOK, yet people treat it like it's a scene-for-scene remake. It's truly bizarre. Khan isn't even the main villain of Into Darkness -- Admiral Marcus is!

2) Pastiches are, again, not rip-offs.

3) TOS's first season featured pastiches of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde ("The Enemy Within"); Hamlet ("The Conscience of the King"); The Enemy Below ("Balance of Terror"); Five Came Back ("The Galileo Seven"); and every courtroom drama ever made ("Court-Martial"). And of course, Star Trek itself is a pastiche of Forbidden Planet. Doing pastiches is no sin.

yeah 3 months and 2 days and yet it has already ripped off many past shows and movies

It's done fewer pastiches than TOS Season One did.

SNW is lucky that James Cameron is too rich and too busy and likely does not watch streaming service as he would have sued SNW writers for all those who wander.

That not how any of this works.

First off, James Cameron was not the director of Alien. That was Ridley Scott; the screenplay was by Dan O'Bannon from a story by O'Bannon and Ronald Shusett. Cameron wrote and directed Aliens, the sequel to Alien. "All Who Wander" is mostly a pastiche of the first film; the little girl is the only element inspired by the second film.

Secondly, directors don't own their movies when it's a big studio release. Neither Cameron, nor Scott, nor O'Bannon, nor Shusett, own the Alien franchise. It is the property of 20th Century Studios, formerly 20th Century Fox, and is therefore the property of the Walt Disney Company. If anyone were to sue, it would be the Walt Disney Company, not James Cameron.

Thirdly, that's not how copyright works. Copyright allows for pastiches, particularly when there are key elements that are different. "All Who Wander" is about the importance of building and maintaining relationships in the face of loss; Alien is about sexual violence and corporate oppression. The stories' hearts are in drastically different places, and their structures are different as a result. Alien is not the first story to use the premise "heroes trapped in an isolated location with a monster out to get them."

Alex Kurtzman star trek show need to stop trying to redo other shows/movies in an obvious way. the finale of SNW had some issue similar to the finale of season 2 discovery.

... What the hell are you talking about? "The Quality of Mercy" and "Such Sweet Sorrow, Parts I & II" had completely different plots and themes.

 

[valden]

Pastiches are not rip-offs, and nothing about "All Those Who Wander" was a pastiche of ST09.


.

all those who wonder was a rip off. this is why most of the reviews made call backs to aliens,

What, to you, would be an "earned" death?

Easy, give the character longer arcs and make them feel they have been a big part of the series and had impact. Hammer fans complained he had been gone from most episodes , only for him to come back and then he dies. hammer should have gotten more screen time before his death

It's done fewer pastiches than TOS Season One did.

Lol, no. TOS had more originality

Lastly, James Cameron won't sue. He is likely never even heard of SNW.

Also such sweet sorrow ripped of many things , most some marvel generic stuff

 

[fireproof78]

Characters should die. No one deserves an "earned death." Stupid concept in modern fiction.

 

[Mudd]

all those who wonder was a rip off. this is why most of the reviews made call backs to aliens,

What, to you, would be an "earned" death?

Easy, give the character longer arcs and make them feel they have been a big part of the series and had impact. Hammer fans complained he had been gone from most episodes , only for him to come back and then he dies. hammer should have gotten more screen time before his death

It's done fewer pastiches than TOS Season One did.

Lol, no. TOS had more originality

Lastly, James Cameron won't sue. He is likely never even heard of SNW.

Also such sweet sorrow ripped of many things , most some marvel generic stuff

It's clear that you don't know what a "rip-off" is.

TOS certainly did more than its share of copying.

 

[Weyoun 251]

Characters should die. No one deserves an "earned death." Stupid concept in modern fiction.

I think some can be considered earned in terms of just being a perfect end to their character arc - see Tony Stark in Endgame.

However not all need to be "earned" as some as just part of the overall story, such as Hemmer, Gary Mitchell, my love life etc

 

[fireproof78]

I think some can be considered earned in terms of just being a perfect end to their character arc - see Tony Stark in Endgame.

However not all need to be "earned" as some as just part of the overall story, such as Hemmer, Gary Mitchell, my love life etc

And if it can be done well, by all means. My biggest point of contention is "deserved." Characters are artificial constructs, like my love life, and don't deserve any particular ending save for what serves the story. That's my view. I remember attending a writing workshop and discussing with reviewers on a short story and my desire to "do justice" to my characters. One reviewer said don't do justice but work the characters in a way that is believable while serving your story. I've really taken that to heart and find it hard to be like "this character deserved X!" because I really don't believe that.

 

[Weyoun 251]

And if it can be done well, by all means. My biggest point of contention is "deserved." Characters are artificial constructs, like my love life, and don't deserve any particular ending save for what serves the story. That's my view. I remember attending a writing workshop and discussing with reviewers on a short story and my desire to "do justice" to my characters. One reviewer said don't do justice but work the characters in a way that is believable while serving your story. I've really taken that to heart and find it hard to be like "this character deserved X!" because I really don't believe that.

I agree with that wholeheartedly - said much more eloquently than I did.

The character deserves only a good story may be a way of putting it.

I guess, if you have enjoyed the story and it has made you feel something then the outcome has been earned.

 

[Sci]

What, to you, would be an "earned" death?

Easy, give the character longer arcs and make them feel they have been a big part of the series and had impact. Hammer fans complained he had been gone from most episodes , only for him to come back and then he dies. hammer should have gotten more screen time before his death

That's a fair enough argument. Hemmer's death worked for me though.

It's done fewer pastiches than TOS Season One did.

Lol, no. TOS had more originality

Nope. Star Trek: Strange New Worlds has quite literally done fewer pastiches in its first season than Star Trek: The Original Series did.

TOS S1 had no less than 9 pastiches:

• Star Trek itself is a pastiche of Forbidden Planet, and "The Cage"/"The Menagerie" are partial pastiches of both Forbidden Planet and of Shakespeare's The Tempest
• "The Enemy Within" was a pastiche of Dr. Jekell & Mr. Hyde
• "Balance of Terror" was a pastiche of The Enemy Below
• "The Conscience of the King" is a blatant pastiche of Hamlet
• "The Galileo Seven" is a pastiche of Five Came Back
• "Court Martial" looks to be a pastiche of several different military legal dramas, including Carrington V.C., The Court-Martial of Billy Mitchell, King and Country, and The Rack -- basically the entire premise of an innocent officer being court-martialed for something he didn't do or shouldn't be held responsible for had been done a million times before "Court Martial" aired
• "Arena" was an inadvertent pastiche of a 1944 short story entitled "Arena" by Fredric Brown, originally published in Astounding Science Fiction (Brown received credit for the episode because writer Gene L. Coon hadn't realized he'd written something so similar to Brown's work until a script reviewer pointed it out, so they bought the rights from Brown to avoid legal problems), and of a 1964 episode of The Outer Limits entitled "Fun and Games"
• "The City on the Edge of Forever" is a partial pastiche of the 1954 short story "The Cold Equations" by Tom Godwin

By contrast, SNW S1 has 7 pastiches:

• "Children of the Comet" is a partial pastiche of Arrival and other sci-fi stories about the difficulty communicating with aliens
• "Ghosts of Illyria" is a partial pastiche of films like Contagion or other pandemic stories
• "Momento Mori" is a pastiche of disaster movies and of submarine movies
• "Spock Amok" is a pastiche of body swap stories like Freaky Friday
• "Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach" is a pastiche of Ursula K. LeGuinn's short story "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas"
• "All Those Who Wander" is a pastiche of Alien
• "The Quality of Mercy" is an inverse pastiche of It's A Wonderful Life

SNW S1 literally has fewer pastiches than TOS S1 -- 7 to TOS's 9!

Lastly, James Cameron won't sue.

Of course he won't sue. He doesn't own Aliens and therefore has no legal standing to sue.

Also such sweet sorrow ripped of many things , most some marvel generic stuff

Please enumerate.

 

[Neopeius]

That's a fair enough argument. Hemmer's death worked for me though.



Nope. Star Trek: Strange New Worlds has quite literally done fewer pastiches in its first season than Star Trek: The Original Series did.

TOS S1 had no less than 9 pastiches:

• Star Trek itself is a pastiche of Forbidden Planet, and "The Cage"/"The Menagerie" are partial pastiches of both Forbidden Planet and of Shakespeare's The Tempest

Per Roddenberry, Star Trek is not a pastiche of Forbidden Planet. It is derivative of the science fiction that appeared in Astounding in the 40s and 50s (this info by way of Al Jackson).

• "The City on the Edge of Forever" is a partial pastiche of the 1954 short story "The Cold Equations" by Tom Godwin

Well, that's a reach...

By contrast, SNW S1 has 7 pastiches:

• "Children of the Comet" is a partial pastiche of Arrival and other sci-fi stories about the difficulty communicating with aliens
• "Ghosts of Illyria" is a partial pastiche of films like Contagion or other pandemic stories
• "Momento Mori" is a pastiche of disaster movies and of submarine movies
• "Spock Amok" is a pastiche of body swap stories like Freaky Friday
• "Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach" is a pastiche of Ursula K. LeGuinn's short story "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas"
• "All Those Who Wander" is a pastiche of Alien
• "The Quality of Mercy" is an inverse pastiche of It's A Wonderful Life

SNW S1 literally has fewer pastiches than TOS S1 -- 7 to TOS's 9!

I can't speak to SNW's pastiches as I've only watched the first two episodes, although I feel you are mixing up pastiche, theme, and inspiration.

But using your broad term, sounds like we're tied -- and S01 of TOS had two and a half times as many episodes, so you need to weight your numbers!

 

[Sci]

Per Roddenberry, Star Trek is not a pastiche of Forbidden Planet. It is derivative of the science fiction that appeared in Astounding in the 40s and 50s (this info by way of Al Jackson).

Roddenberry could say whatever he wants, but the sheer number of similarities, both large and small, clearly mark Star Trek as a pastiche of Forbidden Planet, just as Star Wars would later be developed as a pastiche of Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers.

Well, that's a reach...

I don't think so. The dramatic core of both stories is built around the idea that a male starship captain must intentionally sacrifice the life of an innocent woman in order to protect large numbers of people. There are obviously plenty of differences too, which is why I only marked it as a partial pastiche. But the dramatic core is too similar for me to buy that "The Cold Equations" wasn't part of the story's development.

I can't speak to SNW's pastiches as I've only watched the first two episodes, although I feel you are mixing up pastiche, theme, and inspiration.

But using your broad term, sounds like we're tied -- and S01 of TOS had two and a half times as many episodes, so you need to weight your numbers!

Fair point! But either way, I think it's clear that Star Trek has always done pastiches and that that's not a bad thing.

 

[Neopeius]

Roddenberry could say whatever he wants, but the sheer number of similarities, both large and small, clearly mark Star Trek as a pastiche of Forbidden Planet, just as Star Wars would later be developed as a pastiche of Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers.

And you can say whatever you want, but you're wrong.

Star Trek and Forbidden Planet are arguably in the same clade (though, I'm sorry, Forbidden Planet sucks). A pastiche has to deliberately ape the thing of which it is derivative.

I don't think so. The dramatic core of both stories is built around the idea that a male starship captain must intentionally sacrifice the life of an innocent woman in order to protect large numbers of people. There are obviously plenty of differences too, which is why I only marked it as a partial pastiche. But the dramatic core is too similar for me to buy that "The Cold Equations" wasn't part of the story's development.

You might as well say that any story where someone makes a decision is a pastiche of the very first story where someone makes a decision. The connection is tenuous at best, and a reach at middle.

Fair point! But either way, I think it's clear that Star Trek has always done pastiches and that that's not a bad thing.

I think this is the point where someone posts the Inigo Montoya meme about words not meaning what one thinks they mean.

(and I don't mean to come off as flip and rude. I just strongly disagree. )

 

[Neopeius]

For instance, H.M.S. Trek-a-Star is a deliberate pastiche of Gilbert and Sullivan.

Edit: The Cold Crowd-funding Campaign is not a pastiche of "The Cold Equations", but it is a funny satire of it.

 

[Weyoun 251]

For instance, H.M.S. Trek-a-Star is a deliberate pastiche of Gilbert and Sullivan.

Edit: The Cold Crowd-funding Campaign is not a pastiche of "The Cold Equations", but it is a funny satire of it.

Other than being taken by surprise when I clicked the link to Trek-a-star and it started downloading rather than taking me to another page that may be the best thing I've ever read.

I can hear the songs in my head as I read it and it does seem remarkably well constructed, both as it's own story and as a play on the original

 

[Mudd]

TOS didn't generally do pastiches, but the point remains true - the show copied widely, early and often, beginning with "The Cage."

 

[Neopeius]

Other than being taken by surprise when I clicked the link to Trek-a-star and it started downloading rather than taking me to another page that may be the best thing I've ever read.

I can hear the songs in my head as I read it and it does seem remarkably well constructed, both as it's own story and as a play on the original

Glad you enjoyed it! From the Journey's perspective, it was just composed. Early Trek fandom was remarkable.

TOS didn't generally do pastiches, but the point remains true - the show copied widely, early and often, beginning with "The Cage."

What did "The Cage" copy?

(this is what I consider a "copy")

 

[Nerys Myk]

Glad you enjoyed it! From the Journey's perspective, it was just composed. Early Trek fandom was remarkable.



What did "The Cage" copy?

(this is what I consider a "copy")

I believe in the biz, that’s known as a “swipe“.

 

[Neopeius]

I believe in the biz, that’s known as a “swipe“.

You are correct, sir!