Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 1x10 - "A Quality of Mercy"

[Mr Awe]

That's not what happened. See dialogue and event below (or just watch it again).

Pike started out biased against the notion that the Romulans were hostile at the beginning of the episode. In turn, he disregarded the advice of Ortegas, Kirk, and most importantly, Spock. He should've trusted Spock that destroying the Romulans was necessary. Then he delayed after the comet. He actually had to be told by Kirk. That's why the BoP was out of range--because he DELAYED reacting for so long. So, your dialog thing just makes my point. Kirk says this later when he talks about the hesitation and the need to just blow them out of the sky.

At any rate, I'm not going to argue about a fictional battle. But keep in mind that the whole point of Pike going forward in time was to show him how he F'd up. That's why he can't escape his fate. That's the frigging point! Indeed, it's the premise of the episode. He can't be in command of the Enterprise at that time because he can't prevent the war.

Heck, even with his gamble later, Pike didn't think of a backup plan in case the Romulans couldn't be trusted. Really? After a sneak attack, he just wanted to wait the two hours and see what they did. It took Kirk to come up with a backup plan.

Throughout the episode, Pike obviously just didn't consider the Romulans a serious threat. He said that at the beginning of the episode and it continued throughout despite evidence to the contrary.

Now, I don't think Pike is a dumb character at all. I generally really enjoy his character. This seems entirely out of character. It's obviously down to the writing.

 

[blssdwlf]

Pike started out biased against the notion that the Romulans were hostile at the beginning of the episode. In turn, he disregarded the advice of Ortegas, Kirk, and most importantly, Spock. He should've trusted Spock that destroying the Romulans was necessary.

Pike's attitude towards the comet battle played no part in what happened.

Then he delayed after the comet. He actually had to be told by Kirk. That's why the BoP was out of range--because he DELAYED reacting for so long. So, your dialog thing just makes my point. Kirk says this later when he talks about the hesitation and the need to just blow them out of the sky.

That totally didn't happen. There was no delaying on Pike's part to get to Kirk. Kirk blaming Pike about hesitating to fire is unfortunately Kirk (or the writer) directing blame away from SNW-Kirk's screw up. You're misremembering the entire battle.

But keep in mind that the whole point of Pike going forward in time was to show him how he F'd up. That's why he can't escape his fate. That's the frigging point! Indeed, it's the premise of the episode. He can't be in command of the Enterprise at that time because he can't prevent the war.

Going forward in time showed that everytime Pike lived Spock died. Which again had nothing to do with SNW-Kirk's F'up. It's not the war that needed to be prevented but Spock's death.

Heck, even with his gamble later, Pike didn't think of a backup plan in case the Romulans couldn't be trusted. Really? After a sneak attack, he just wanted to wait the two hours and see what they did. It took Kirk to come up with a backup plan.

They wouldn't have needed a backup plan if Kirk just got out of there and regrouped with Pike. They were in the mess they were in because Kirk charged the Farragut in without pulling back to fight as a team.

Throughout the episode, Pike obviously just didn't consider the Romulans a serious threat. He said that at the beginning of the episode and it continued throughout despite evidence to the contrary.

Once the shooting started there is every reason to believe Pike was taking the Romulans seriously. Pike has to take a less combative tone with the Romulans because the Enterprise had no weapons due to damage.

Now, I don't think Pike is a dumb character at all. I generally really enjoy his character. This seems entirely out of character. It's obviously down to the writing.

IMHO, I think you misremembered the episode. Pike was initially disoriented jumping forward in time but he showed no problems with his tactics or response time. He was even very patient with Kirk who kept trying to blame Pike (and not himself) for the loss. If anything, the writers did SNW-Kirk a disservice. IMHO.

EDIT: And another thing SNW-Kirk missed out on doing is ramming all those automated ships into the Romulan fleet. Ugh.

 

[Mr Awe]

Pike's attitude towards the comet battle played no part in what happened.

There was no delaying on Pike's part to get to Kirk.

Sorry, but that's just wrong. Pike was consistently portrayed throughout this episode as someone not taking the Romulan's seriously. At the beginning of the episode, he didn't believe Betal about the Romulans developing weapons and being involved in incidents near the Neutral Zone. He blew that off! He was unprepared for the confrontation. And you can see that attitude continuing throughout the episode--the hesitation, no backup plan, etc.

We saw the delay. Kirk commented on it. It had consequences that we saw. So, yes, the delay happened.

At any rate, just keep in mind that the point of this episode was to show us that Pike must accept his fate. It was made clear that going to the future was to show him how he F'd up and couldn't avoid the war (or Spock's death).

As I said, that's the premise behind the episode.

The main reason I didn't like this episode as much as most viewers is because I feel the premise itself is flawed. It forces the episode to make Pike look bad. He's not a dumb character but he had to come across as being slower and less adaptable than Kirk in order to fulfill the episode's purpose of illustrating Pike's unavoidable fate. Again, that's the point. You might not like it, but it was the point of the episode. I don't care for it either.

We can agree to disagree. Although you'd be missing the episode's point. But that's no skin off my teeth.

 

[blssdwlf]

Sorry, but that's just wrong. Pike was consistently portrayed throughout this episode as someone not taking the Romulan's seriously. At the beginning of the episode, he didn't believe Betal about the Romulans developing weapons and being involved in incidents near the Neutral Zone. He blew that off!

As I said before, his attitude towards the Romulans at the beginning of the episode have nothing to do with his combat effectiveness when he is jumped forward 7 years into the future.

He was unprepared for the confrontation. And you can see that attitude continuing throughout the episode--the hesitation, no backup plan, etc.

If you were to re-watch the episode you'll realize that Pike didn't hesitate to rush towards Kirk's ship. The only one that hesitated for 16 agonizing seconds was Kirk waiting to fire.

We saw the delay. Kirk commented on it. It had consequences that we saw. So, yes, the delay happened.

I saw no such thing. And what's worse, Kirk was trying to shift blame. Watch it again. Why didn't Kirk get out of the trap when Pike told him to? Why does Kirk wait an agonizing full 16 seconds before firing at the Romulan ship? Why does Kirk expect Pike to be able to fire at the Romulans when Pike's out of range?

We can agree to disagree. Although you'd be missing the episode's point. But that's no skin off my teeth.

Yes, we'll have to agree to disagree since you're not recounting the battle accurately.

 

[Mr Awe]

Yes, we'll have to agree to disagree since you're not recounting the battle accurately.

I assure you, I'm remembering it quite accurately. As I indicated, I just rewatched the episode.

Pike's characterization at the beginning of the episode and throughout definitely affects his decisions. It was made explicit and connects to the premise. There's a clear throughline there in terms of the writers' intent.

Cheers.

 

[blssdwlf]

I assure you, I'm remembering it quite accurately. As I indicated, I just rewatched the episode.

Pike's characterization at the beginning of the episode and throughout definitely affects his decisions. It was made explicit and connects to the premise. There's a clear throughline there in terms of the writers' intent.

Cheers.

Since you rewatched the episode, how much time did Pike delay in firing at the Romulan when Kirk requested and Pike answered they were still out of range? How much time did Kirk delay firing at the Romulan when Kirk ordered the Tiberius 4 attack pattern?

The writers' intent was to show that Pike avoiding the accident would've caused Spock to die. That was clear. But it is SNW-Kirk's actions during the comet battle in this particular timeline screwed up their chances of a victory. Kirk trying to blame Pike for the loss is just a bad look on Kirk.

 

[Mr Awe]

@blssdwlf Sorry. I'm not continuing. We've both made our points and have come to different conclusions.

 

[indranee]

I notice you spend quite a few posts being dismissive of people who don't like change, this included. But this analogy it doesn't quite work.

The problem is that Hamlet is performed by different people in different ways. Different interpretations. Whereas with Trek yes technically it is different people too due to the time span, but it's brought by the same producer and holder of those rights.

It's the same product.

It's a bit like saying some new people joined Coca Cola, and you must like the new Cola Cola flavour they've introduced. Just accept it people!

But just like some people like when Hamlet is done in a steampunk style and others prefer a more pure interpretation, some people like the standard Coke taste and aren't a fan of New Coke.

There is no right or wrong, it's a preference. Our bars of acceptance of change will run the spectrum.

It's not even about acceptance of The New Interpretation. It's about quality. Art is subjective. And if I don't like the rendition of Hamlet YOU like, well, so be it. I don't HAVE to like ANYTHING you like just because it's done again. And again. And again. Unless, of course, it's a quality product in my -- yes, subjective -- opinion.

Btw, when I say "you" -- it's a general "you."

 

[blssdwlf]

@blssdwlf Sorry. I'm not continuing. We've both made our points and have come to different conclusions.

Sounds good.

 

[NCC-73515]

In 01 the accident was 10 years later, now it's 7 years, and BoT is only 6 months after that.

Kirk is upset about a one second delay - because of his hesitation to fire on the blood cloud some 10 years earlier?

Comms using the TNG hailing sound is so odd

Witnessing the massacre on Tarsus IV is listed as part of Kirk's training XD

 

[indranee]

Tom Paris got off with relatively light manual labor while Dr. Bashir's father went to the same facility for three years just for having his son genetically modified and decades earlier.

Tom's father pulled strings.

 

[cooleddie74]

Owen Paris had an ancestor who was George Costanza's boss. It always helps to have creative avenues when dealing with troublemakers.

 

[NCC-73515]

Sheer terror, barely holding on to the desk vs. Just standing around

Genuine surprise as only a Vulcan can show it vs. I gotta get this brow up and leave the other one down... hold... please say cut...

Conveying regret, relief, and reminiscing about friendship in a different time vs. just trying not to smile (?)

Disclaimer: JOKING!!! - But comparing them side by side, those were my first thoughts

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

To be fair, if Deep Space Nine had tried Trials and Tribble-ations as their 10th episode they would've struggled too.

 

[Trekker4747]

In 01 the accident was 10 years later, now it's 7 years, and BoT is only 6 months after that.

To be fair, when Pike says the accident is 10 years away he was kinda guessing.

 

[Mudd]

Since you rewatched the episode, how much time did Pike delay in firing at the Romulan when Kirk requested and Pike answered they were still out of range? How much time did Kirk delay firing at the Romulan when Kirk ordered the Tiberius 4 attack pattern?

The writers' intent was to show that Pike avoiding the accident would've caused Spock to die. That was clear. But it is SNW-Kirk's actions during the comet battle in this particular timeline screwed up their chances of a victory. Kirk trying to blame Pike for the loss is just a bad look on Kirk.

Right, which is why his remark to Pike at the end came across as so dickish. Pike doesn't have anything to learn from Kirk where learning from his errors and taking responsibility for his actions are concerned.

 

[TrekTrucker]

This does lead to TOS. Right now Pike is in command with Ortegas as the helm officer. In seven years it'll be Kirk in command with Sulu as the helm officer. Right now the bridge module has a ready room. In seven years it won't.

Which begs the question, why would Kirk give up a ready room?

 

[Komutan]

The interesting thing is that the war is not caused directly by Pike’s decision to prevent the accident, but by his decision to stay as captain of the Enterprise. So maybe, at some point he will find the solution to avoid the accident without causing the war. Anyway, I don’t think we have seen the last of this issue.

 

[Mudd]

Which begs the question, why would Kirk give up a ready room?

How do we know he does?

 

[AntonyF]

Disclaimer: JOKING!!! - But comparing them side by side, those were my first thoughts

My TOS knowledge is very sketchy, so thanks for that. I hadn't realised it was Balance of Terror!

It makes way more sense now.