Spoilers Star Trek: Prodigy General Discussion Thread

[Wouter]

Interview with John "The Diviner" Noble: https://trekmovie.com/2022/12/16/in...and-hope-for-redemption-in-star-trek-prodigy/

Apparently, he was "a bright young leader", presumably around the time of first contact with the Federation.
The Diviner's love for "his progeny", as John Noble asserts the Diviner does have, was rather well hidden during the first 10 episodes, though. Seeing the Medusan must have improved him considerably, like a factory reset maybe?

See also this inteview with the writers of the episode Mindwalk: https://blog.trekcore.com/2022/12/interview-star-trek-prodigy-julie-shawna-benson-mindwalk/

They touch on the Diviner's memories and his changing attitude towards Gwyn.

 

[Wouter]

Trekmovie also has an interview - conducted by email - with Julie and Shawna Benson: https://trekmovie.com/2022/12/17/in...swaps-janeways-and-whats-driving-the-diviner/

Some interesting questions and answers here.

"The writers spent a lot of time discussing every character’s arc for the season, including Hologram Janeway. We never wanted her to be a static, unchanging character, and it wouldn’t be consistent with what Star Trek has done with hologram characters in the past, most notably Professor Moriarty in TNG and the EMH Doctor in Voyager. It would be impossible for our young crew to not have some effect on her!"

"As far as Asencia knows, Janeway’s odd behavior is the result of knocking her out. Maybe The Diviner hit the Admiral harder than she realized? But she keeps The Diviner’s warning in mind. Killing Janeway would prevent them from completing their mission. So, she keeps her emotions in check, but clearly was ready to act if Janeway called her out for the attack she suffered."

"The Diviner’s actions in the first half of the season are so ruthless and cruel, no one would mistake him as having real empathy or depth of feeling. But if he really were so evil, he wouldn’t be so passionate about saving Solum from disaster. His deep love for the Vau N’Akat has driven him to his darkness.

The Diviner’s memory loss after seeing Zero’s true form has given The Diviner the ability to see Starfleet and the Federation in a new light, free of his own trauma and baggage. He’s very aware that Admiral Janeway saved his life when she rescued him from Tars Lamora and she’s treated him with kindness and respect while he’s been recovering. So, while he now remembers his mission, he’s conflicted about the impact it will have on the people who have shown him real compassion. He feels that he owes Janeway his life, so he helps her when she most needs that assistance.

But there’s a bigger reason he helps Janeway—Gwyn. Whether he knew it consciously or not, the Diviner does love his daughter. You may have noticed it is Asencia who calls her ‘progeny’ when the Diviner refers to Gwyn as his daughter. His relationship to Gwyn has changed because he can finally see her as something other than a means to an end. And now that he has connected with her emotionally, her safety is as important to him as his mission."

I do feel that they made the Diviner too evil/ruthless - and uncaring about Gwyn for anything beyond her survival and presence - in the first half of season 1, for the apparent redemption they seem to have in mind. Since I think it's likely that The Diviner will intervene on Gwyn's behalf in a fight between her and Ascencia, this may lead to some very awkward moments for Gwyn.

 

[Timofnine]

The Diviner is almost turning in to a Gul Dukat type figure personality wise, especially with his developing relationship with his daughter Gwyn which has similarities between that of Dukat and Ziyal.

 

[Wouter]

The Diviner is almost turning in to a Gul Dukat type figure personality wise, especially with his developing relationship with his daughter Gwyn which has similarities between that of Dukat and Ziyal.

There are similarities, but Dukat started out as an antagonist with some sympathetic qualities, then seemed to be presented in a slightly more sympathetic way for a while, and then turned into a full-on villain eventually.

Whereas with the Diviner, he starts out as the big bad, almost without any redeeming qualities. It may be the opposite of Dukat's development, that they're trying to do.

 

[Christopher]

The Diviner is almost turning in to a Gul Dukat type figure personality wise, especially with his developing relationship with his daughter Gwyn which has similarities between that of Dukat and Ziyal.

I don't think I'm comfortable with that analogy, given how Dukat turned out. I feel the Diviner is more redeemable than Dukat. After all, the Diviner has a tragic backstory to motivate his actions; he thinks he has to change history to prevent the Federation from destroying his homeworld. (Which, come to think of it, is nearly the exact same motive as Agams, the villain from the currently airing Ultraman Decker.) Dukat had no such goals; he was just a fascist exploiter and mass murderer for the sake of power and control. So when he started to seem redeemable, it was a mistake, and the producers overcorrected for that mistake by making another mistake, turning him into a cartoonishly evil madman. In the Diviner's case, there's a lot more room for him to be redeemed.

 

[James Cole]

I just noticed this now, the credits usually quickly cut out to Transformers cartoons so it’s hard to ‘keep them on’. It’s a beautiful closing piece and would not have sounded out of place on an episode of contemporary Voyager. Maybe they should start work on the Seven of Nine spin-off theme music/soundtrack ‘just in case’.

The Voyager style theme has just been posted on YouTube...

This landing page has three albums worth of different soundtracks, looks like approximately 90 assuming there aren't duplications.

 

[Tuskin38]

There are a few duplicates.

 

[StewMc]

I remember an interview with the Prodigy composer stating something along the lines of that the Voyager theme was too expensive so that’s why there’s this “Voyager-esque” theme for Janeway instead.

I’d have though CBS would own the theme? Unless they have to pay a fortune in royalties to the Goldsmith estate when they use it? It was briefly quoted a couple of times in PIC S1…

 

[Timofnine]

I remember an interview with the Prodigy composer stating something along the lines of that the Voyager theme was too expensive so that’s why there’s this “Voyager-esque” theme for Janeway instead.

I’d have though CBS would own the theme? Unless they have to pay a fortune in royalties to the Goldsmith estate when they use it? It was briefly quoted a couple of times in PIC S1…

There is something unusual about film scores that makes them collectible to buy sometimes. The soundtracks to the 90’s Star Trek series have only had limited releases on Lalaland Records . When they sell Star Trek music they limit it to 3,000 or 10,000 copies, besides a few general releases. This is all to do with making sure that all the artists behind the music get paid fairly or something on those lines. Paramount/CBS could quite easily put the soundtracks on to iTunes or Spotify ex but it would devalue the artists work as they would only get a small percentage of the revenue from soundtrack sales. I guess that as a lot of the music is by Jerry Goldsmith and Jay Chattaway it is *very* expensive to license as they are famous movie and television composers. I think that they should definitely do a bottle episode or two so that they can afford some of the old tracks and themes. They are doing a good job of the soundtrack in Prodigy so far though with their original work, but it’s nice to hear things which are sentimental. If they began to make Prodigy a build up to a potential spin-off series, ‘world building’ as they say, then maybe they could increase the budget baring this in mind. But they probably will not.

 

[Christopher]

I’d have though CBS would own the theme? Unless they have to pay a fortune in royalties to the Goldsmith estate when they use it? It was briefly quoted a couple of times in PIC S1…

You can own a creator's work, yet still have to pay them royalties every time you use it. The royalties are their compensation for selling you the rights to their work when they first created it.

 

[Tuskin38]

I wonder how John Williams Star Wars music works, because it seems like anyone working with the Star Wars licence for a media project is allowed to use the movie's music.

 

[StewMc]

I wonder what the deal is with the Courage theme, since it’s used left right and centre in Trek. Either it’s cheap royalties, or CBS own it royalty free?

 

[Christopher]

I wonder how John Williams Star Wars music works, because it seems like anyone working with the Star Wars licence for a media project is allowed to use the movie's music.

I wonder what the deal is with the Courage theme, since it’s used left right and centre in Trek. Either it’s cheap royalties, or CBS own it royalty free?

Both Williams and Courage get their names listed in the credits of the productions that use their themes, and that tells you that, yes, they (or their estates) do indeed get paid royalties. Anyone who gets credited gets paid (unless it's a "Special Thanks" credit). The more prominent the credit, the larger the payout.

Yes, sometimes a studio decides it's cheaper not to reuse something like a musical theme in order to avoid paying royalties, but that's hardly automatic or standard. It's just like any other budget decision: if you have the money to spare and believe it's worth spending, then you spend it.

In this case, I'd guess that Prodigy had a finite music budget and could afford to license the Courage theme but not the Voyager theme also. Or maybe Goldsmith just got a more lucrative contract because of his fame and success.

 

[The Wormhole]

I wonder what the deal is with the Courage theme, since it’s used left right and centre in Trek. Either it’s cheap royalties, or CBS own it royalty free?

I don't think Courage ever owned the TOS theme. Wasn't that the whole reason why Roddenberry gave it lyrics, to prevent Courage from owning it?

 

[Tuskin38]

Star Trek Online in their TOS themed expansion uses the first few notes as well. In the beta test they used the entire theme, but then cut it down and mixed it in with their own music.

Both Williams and Courage get their names listed in the credits of the productions that use their themes, and that tells you that, yes, they (or their estates) do indeed get paid royalties. Anyone who gets credited gets paid (unless it's a "Special Thanks" credit). The more prominent the credit, the larger the payout.

I wonder if Williams royalties are cheaper or if LucasFilm covers some of the cost. Because everything from Mobile games and up uses Movie music.

 

[Christopher]

I don't think Courage ever owned the TOS theme. Wasn't that the whole reason why Roddenberry gave it lyrics, to prevent Courage from owning it?

No, it was to get half the royalties from the sheet music sales, since he didn't expect to make any money from Star Trek itself.

 

[Timofnine]

Star Trek Online in their TOS themed expansion uses the first few notes as well. In the beta test they used the entire theme, but then cut it down and mixed it in with their own music.

I do think Williams has some sort of deal regarding the Star Wars music, or maybe it's cheaper that Star Trek music rights.

Can someone speak to this Williams guy and find out what his deal is with Star Wars music rights so that Star Trek can potentially replicate it? The Star Trek musicians need to understand that they are licensing their music to a niche market, not a mass one such as with Star Wars. They can not expect Star Wars prices but I am sure that something could be worked out if TPTB *really* wanted legacy music in their productions in order to make whatever they are making sound more authentic.

 

[Christopher]

The Star Trek musicians need to understand that they are licensing their music to a niche market, not a mass one such as with Star Wars.

Seriously? If Trek is so "niche," then why is the TrekBBS with only a single Star Wars subforum, not the WarsBBS with a single Star Trek subforum? Wars would never have existed if Trek hadn't paved the way by being a huge phenomenon, allowing Lucas to convince studios that a space opera movie could be profitable. Star Trek pioneered sci-fi fandom as we know it -- conventions, fanzines, fanfiction, multi-series franchises, etc. The SW Expanded Universe came into being because Lucas saw how successful Star Trek tie-in novels were and wanted in on that action. And even with all the expansion of the SW franchise under Disney, it still hasn't surpassed ST in the total number of movies and television episodes it's produced, and lags far behind it in the total number of tie-in novels, though it might surpass it in comics. Granted, SW is probably more profitable overall, but that doesn't mean it makes sense to call Trek "niche." That's like calling Saturn a dwarf planet because it's not quite as big as Jupiter. Star Trek is easily the hugest American sci-fi franchise besides Star Wars and the MCU, and Star Wars only got huge by standing on Star Trek's shoulders.

Anyway, looking into it, it looks to me as if most music licensing in the US is handled by BMI, a performance rights organization. Composers use a variety of different music publishers (which I guess are sort of the equivalent of agents for writers or actors, responsible for arranging contracts and payments), but whenever I see a music publisher credited, it's always with "(BMI)" after the name, so I guess it's a larger entity that they're all members of. Although I think sometimes ASCAP handles them instead. But my soundtrack albums list BMI publishers for both Williams and the Trek composers. So I don't think there's any major difference in how their respective music is licensed.

Besides, who says Star Trek isn't using legacy music in its shows? If anything, they've been using it a lot more in recent years. Almost everybody quotes the Courage fanfare, and Giacchino's Kelvin movie scores used the entire Courage theme as their end titles. The Strange New Worlds theme is a partial quote and overall paraphrase of the Courage theme, and SNW episode scores have occasionally quoted other Trek music, such as Gerald Fried's "Amok Time" battle music. Picard's main title theme is derived from one of Jay Chattaway's flute pieces from "The Inner Light." Lower Decks quotes familiar musical themes, such as the First Contact theme when the show visited Bozeman and the Phoenix, and the DS9 theme when they went to the station.

 

[Tuskin38]

Concept art and renders for the Protostar
https://nuenstudio.com/trek

Besides, who says Star Trek isn't using legacy music in its shows? If anything, they've been using it a lot more in recent years. Almost everybody quotes the Courage fanfare, and Giacchino's Kelvin movie scores used the entire Courage theme as their end titles. The Strange New Worlds theme is a partial quote and overall paraphrase of the Courage theme, and SNW episode scores have occasionally quoted other Trek music, such as Gerald Fried's "Amok Time" battle music. Picard's main title theme is derived from one of Jay Chattaway's flute pieces from "The Inner Light." Lower Decks quotes familiar musical themes, such as the First Contact theme when the show visited Bozeman and the Phoenix, and the DS9 theme when they went to the station.

And we're also getting a bunch of returning TNG movie music in Picard Season 3 apparently.

 

[NCC-73515]

Now some for the Dauntless, please