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Spoilers Star Trek: Prodigy 1x20 - "Supernova, Part 2"

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'Standard' may be very difficult to learn for some species within the Federation (I imagine a Brikar would have difficulties, for example), and learning it to a sufficient degree as to be able to communicate is not a half effort: you still have to speak/hear/maintain the language (whereas the UT is so incredibly convenient and everybody has so much other things to learn with the vast knowledge base of the Federation).

I think 'Standard' (aka, English) was mentioned to be a fairly 'simple' language quite a number of times by various species who encountered Humans (either early on, or in the 24th century).

Its possible some species might have issues with learning standard due to how they originally learned to communicate, and as such, I would imagine that those species would rely on UT's... but otherwise, the UFP would probably encourage learning 'Standard' (whichever it was originally set out to be as agreed upon by the founding members) as a 'common language' for everyone in UFP (but it wouldn't really be forced).

As an example of a large alliance lacking a single language that everyone would be taught: in the EU, comparable in some (not all) respects to the Federation, this is not the case. I'm not sure to what extent it is true in another large alliance that is in some respects comparable to Starfleet: NATO. I don't think every NATO soldier/specialist is required to know English, not sure about officers. I think it is probably restricted to certain categories, like military pilots. A tank commander in, say, Poland, would not necessarily be able to speak English even though that this is certainly the main language of that alliance.

And not everybody in the EU speaks either French or German (let alone both) to the extent they can actually communicate in it.

Learning languages is hard, for most (maybe all) people.

Learning languages is hard mainly because people go through the learning process after they have fully matured - but its not impossible.

As children, its a lot easier to learn languages... however, even Human adults can learn to speak and write another language fluently in a year for social purposes.
For academic purposes, they'd need about 5-7 years
I would imagine that within UFP, and the fact its learning curriculuum is likely individualised (aka, adapted to the individual - but in a gamified manner), it would probably structure the learning curve to be interesting and engaging (aka, it wouldn't really feel like studying, but it would be integrated in everyday activities and wouldn't feel like a chore - which of course would make things a lot easier - think of it like playing a game you find very engaging, but it also teaches you things while you're playing it).

Yes, it's very likely Gwyn saw something that wasn't shown on screen, to us. But the point remains that this tiny star cluster (as it would be in the sky of Solum) wasn't at all highlighted in the holosimulation, unlike the twin moons that Soji saw. And that she would have to recall it from memory at Starfleet HQ (we can assume the hastily created shuttle did not have a copy of the holorecording), in order to distinguish it from all other star clusters that may vaguely look like it.

Remember that holographic simulations DO contain a lot of data. A lot of which would include environmental factors, etc.
It would be necessary for accurately simulating Solum's environment.
Even I have stray thoughts of remembering stuff that seems vague, but manage to connect it.
Gwyn probably had some time at SF HQ to re-analyse the information before discussing things with Dal, so she found Solum's location in the time she was there - and SF would have granted her access to their own stellar cartography to try and pinpoint its location.

Also, we don't know if she took the Solum's holoprogram from the Protostar before they destroyed it.
I would imagine this would be something she kept on her person as it was important to her.

Along with her incredible ability with languages, and the telepathic/telekinetic properties, It's still a clear indication - IMO - that Vau N'akat are on another level as far as their fysiology (maybe this is the wrong word, but I hope you get my meaning) goes. Vulcans are standouts among prominent Federation members, with several abilities not seen in humans and probably Tellarites and Andorians, but even they seem to be significantly less developed as a species in certain aspects.

Oh I'm not denying the premise that the Vau'N'A'Kat may have better memory and visual processing abilities than your average human, all I'm saying is, we shouldn't really discount the fact that Gwyn underwent intense studying in her 17 years on Tars Lamora in wide variety of subjects.
To me, she's a generalist. That's why she's able to connect the dots... even humans who are generalists tend to problem solve a lot better than specialists and make better advancements because they can connect information/data from one field with another.

Also, remember Hoshi Sato?
Or Uhura?
These two humans are prime examples of having uncanny ability to learn new languages quickly.
We don't know if this is an abnormality in the human genome, but it probably has more to do with evironmental stimulus they were exposed to as children... prompting them into the direction towards analysing and learning languages.

Both Ascencia and The Diviner have used the word "primitive" to describe other species or the UFP alliance, and while obviously not true in every sense, their feeling of superiority may be coming from the apparent discrepancy in the abilities that they demonstrate vs the average Federation denizen, as well as their apparent progress with AI/IT tech and protomatter. And thus not quite be as delusional as it sounds at first.

Both Ascencia and Diviner's perceptions of UFP were coloured by their rage, so I wouldn't think they would be the most objective individuals regarding their claims on who is more 'superior'.

I mean, the Vau'N'A'Kat DID end up having a civil war because half of their population was not ready to accept the idea they weren't alone in the universe - and this coming from a species which already had FTL capabilities and starships at the point First Contact happened.
That the Vau'N'A'Kat hadn't even contemplated about the possibility of other sentient species seems a bit ludicruous (which in itself would provide them with 'some' ability to cope with the idea).

But, the division was predominantly between the population of Solum that wanted to join UFP, and the population that wanted to remain isolated (or it evolved into that).


Humans and Vulcans may have had their own versions of civil wars before joining the galactic community, but neither had an existential crisis that nearly destroyed them over the premise of sentient life in the galaxy and universe at large.

Telepathy and Telekinesis can certainly be advantageous to working on various tasks, but as we saw, they aren't always optimal... nor do they necessarily always work.
When Gwyn was fighting the Borg, she was very much overwhelmed by them... and she couldn't for example use her telepathic abilities to destroy their body armor (eh, Kes would have had much more success there as she could actually manipulate any type of matter with her Telekinetic abilities - the Vau'N'A'Kat telekinetic abilty seems to extend to the use of specific matter (which they made) that forms their 'heirlooms' - so, limited it seems.

As for protomatter... was Gwyn's heirloom described as Protomatter? Or was it just a version of programmable matter (aka, smart materials which resonate with Vau'N'A'Kat telepathic centres)?

Plus, as far as their AI capabilities go... remember that UFP posesses extraordinary computer technology too, but for some reason, it just doesn't use them to the fullest extent (courtesy of the writers for the most part to try and not make things 'too easy' - but in that case, just MAKE a story that works with the enhanced security features, etc.).
And UFP is usually not in the business of weaponizing their technology for deadly purposes - but we have seen they can certainly do so if the motivation/need is there.

Also, UFP has some 'limits' in regards to how far they will take certain technology (regulated for the most part).
For example, genetic engineering cannot be used to ENHANCE a person, but it seems the ban on genetic engineering was relaxed over time in a sense that it CAN be used for the purpose of fixing some congetinal issues in utero - such as curvature of the spine (at least as of 2377/2378), and possibly blindness (the ban may not have been relaxed on this premise early enough for La Forge to benefit from it - although, I do recall that Pulaski mentioned to him she could in effect give him real human eyes by implementing cellular regeneration techniques - which is something UFP CAN do, but again, doesn't really implement.
They could also use same techniques to reverse ageing (not to mention the transporter could be used for that too), but again, they don't do this (or they do, but we just hadn't seen humans who opted to live beyond 150 odd years... which is odd because a LOT of them would probably enjoy the idea of living extremely long lives).

Even when the synth ban was in place for about 17 years (ST: Pic S1), the Daystrom Institute was not allowed to make any synthetics, however, they were allowed to experiment with aspects of synth technology to enhance computer and robotic systems further.
Without making actual synths, you'd be limited yes, but given how advanced and accurate UFP holographic simulations are, you can make a reasonable extrapolation from those (at least until the ban is lifted).

So, whether or not the UFP is primitive (on average) to the Vau'N'A'Kat... eh, both sides excell in some areas and probably have weaknesses in others.

One thing I didn't understand is not using the positronic components to affect cures for various diseases (as it was noted that Riker's and Troi's son died effectively because of the ban).
Medical treatments should superceed the ban, and they wouldn't be used to created actual synths anyway. Oh well.

Remember that the Vau'N'A'Kat from about 52 years into the future captured the Protostar and had it in their possession for over 72 days.
Given that they were already advanced space faring culture, it stands to reason they'd be able to get deeply familiar with SF computer systems and circumvent most security obstacles SF put into place (and program their Living Construct accordingly).

Also, not much superiority present in the fact of how the Construct operated. It needed actual Vau'N'A'Kat to use and it had to maintain the signal/connection to the SF ships it was controlling. Wouldn't it be easier to just set it to make copies of small amounts of corrupted code and just transmit that into SF's computers which would self-replicate exponentially and corrupt their systems, therefore a continuous signal wouldn't be required? Plus, just automatically open a comms signal to another SF ship/station and transmit the corrupted program directly as opposed to luring ships into a singular location.

There are 'holes' in Vindicator's statements of superiority over UFP and SF. And now their only remaining Living Construct ended up destroyed to boot so they wouldn't be able to destroy SF as they hoped.
 
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who has authority is debatable, though. See the numerous occasions something was declared canon and then promptly ignored.

Not really. Paramount, specifically the showrunners and production personnel.

Edit: continuity issues and retcons have been a long-standing issue.
 
I'm also here directly telling you that's not how it works. Mark Rademaker designed the graphic for the already existent Vesta class under the CBS/Paramount license. That means that graphic is owned by CBS/Paramount.

what I quoted to you says otherwise.

They literally said they had to negotiate with Rademaker to use the design. How more clear does it have to be?

If CBS owned the design, why would they have to negotiate with Rademaker?
The negotiations took several months.
 
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what I quoted to you says otherwise.

They literally said they had to negotiate with Rademaker to use the design. How more clear does it have to be?

If CBS owned the design, why would they have to negotiate with Rademaker?

Someone f-ed up and left a loophole in the original contract? Or Rademaker's contract with the game developers did nor include reciprocal rights for Paramount. Using Rademaker's stuff by Paramount might be considered "derivative work".

(Disclaimer: not a lawyer)
 
language and there are many languages spoken within the EU.
true, but for example here in Italy you often get the option to choose between learning English or french.

Besides, "learning" a language may be a misnomer: it will be on the curriculum at school, but often this won't be sufficient to actually learn the language to the point you can actually use it
yeah, as I said it’s not really taken seriously everywhere. I’ve been in Germany a lot though and pretty much everyone who wasn’t someone over 50 from the former DDR spoke a decent and very understandable English. Also in Greece I’ve been surprised to discover it was easy to communicate in English (I’ve only been in Athens and other touristic areas though.
In Spain, France, Portugal and of course Italy it can be hard to get around with English alone in my experience.

That many countries use dubbing so that only their language is heard in media doesn't help.
true, starting to watch Star Trek in English has been a big turning point to improve my English some 15 years ago.
 
Someone f-ed up and left a loophole in the original contract? Or Rademaker's contract with the game developers did nor include reciprocal rights for Paramount. Using Rademaker's stuff by Paramount might be considered "derivative work".

(Disclaimer: not a lawyer)
Yeah, any previous negotiate with CBS would have been for book covers not video games.

There's also the fact you can't request a 3D print of the Vesta or any kitbash using the Vesta parts because that wasn't part of the original STO deal.
 
the Vau'N'A'Kat telekinetic abilty seems to extend to the use of specific matter (which they made) that forms their 'heirlooms' - so, limited it seems
did we see any Vau'N'A'Kat use telekinesis unrelatedly of their heirlooms? I don’t think so and assumed they had a link to their heirloom, not telekinesis.

Not really. Paramount, specifically the showrunners and production personnel.

Edit: continuity issues and retcons have been a long-standing issue.
think of the times a show runner or writer or the official site said that a comic or book was canon and was promptly ignored by subsequent series or movies.

what I quoted to you says otherwise.

They literally said they had to negotiate with Rademaker to use the design. How more clear does it have to be?

If CBS owned the design, why would they have to negotiate with Rademaker?
perhaps they wanted to reuse the actual digital assets, not just the design?
 
perhaps they wanted to reuse the actual digital assets, not just the design?
Cryptic made their own model. Mark's would have been too high quality for the game.

The Eaglemoss booklet talks about the designing and such but I don't own it. I'm trying to see if someone scanned it or recorded it on youtube
 
I'm reading the booklet that came with the Eaglemoss Vesta model (thank you irish trekkie for clear recordings)
It was Mark that approached Pocket Books about designing the ship.
Another one of his ships, the USS Spirit, was in the 2008 Calendar, and was described as a Slipstream testbed, Mask saw fans on a forum (not named) had been subbing that in has a possible head canon design for the Aventine.

So Mark called up Pocketbook and offered to design an actual Vesta class for them.

The book doesn't go into any legal detail since it's about the actual design process.
 
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I'm confused. The destruction of the Protostar created a wormhole into the future where Chakotay is imprisoned on Solum. But how can that future still exist, given that first contact with Solum can't go the same way it originally did? That timeline should disappear now.

Either that, or Gwyn is doomed to fail in her efforts to unify the Vau N'Akat. :(
 
It’s an alternate future. It’s kinda consistent with Star Trek 2009: the “erased” future still exists but is normally inaccessible.

And thinking of it this idea pretty much solves all the times where someone erases their present but they keep existing.
 
true, but for example here in Italy you often get the option to choose between learning English or french.

And in most EU countries, you will easily have the option to speak English (as its commonly enough used language as is).

yeah, as I said it’s not really taken seriously everywhere. I’ve been in Germany a lot though and pretty much everyone who wasn’t someone over 50 from the former DDR spoke a decent and very understandable English. Also in Greece I’ve been surprised to discover it was easy to communicate in English (I’ve only been in Athens and other touristic areas though.
In Spain, France, Portugal and of course Italy it can be hard to get around with English alone in my experience.

Been to several EU countries (though I originate from Croatia and now live in Scotland), and I could always use English for relatively easy communication.

In some countries like Luxembourg, English isn't necessarily as commonly used, but you can still get by.

Germany was ok in terms of English, but I got a bit of an impression (which could have been wrong) that some people (in shops, etc.) didn't necessarily like using it.

true, starting to watch Star Trek in English has been a big turning point to improve my English some 15 years ago.

I learned English by watching american and canadian TV shows and movies as a kid in Croatia with subtitles (not dubs)... that's how I was able to learn on how to speak the language for the most part without an accent.
Even Sailor Moon (which I still like to this day), was aired in my country in original Japanese with Croatian subtitles.

I was able to pick up a few things from Japanese like that, but mostly learned English.
Spanish soap operas were commonly aired with subs in Croatia too, so up until about 10 years ago, I was able to crudely communicate with a Spanish guy I met in London in Spanish (but after that I hadn't really used the language at all, so it rusted - English however stayed with me).

But, upon visiting my family in Croatia, I noticed in the past decade or 15 tears that dubs started taking place of subs.... which definitely isn't a good thing if you ask me (as my sister's kids had issues with English and were watching dubbed stuff on TV - and DUMB stuff at that (crudely drawn, which almost seemed to have very little effort to it - and I even asked my sister why doesn't she just give them something better with subs to watch instead - but she was busy and just couldn't find the time).

The source material was ALWAYS better (at least to me) if it was aired in the original language it was made in with subtitles in language you can understand.
 
Oh I'm not denying the premise that the Vau'N'A'Kat may have better memory and visual processing abilities than your average human, all I'm saying is, we shouldn't really discount the fact that Gwyn underwent intense studying in her 17 years on Tars Lamora in wide variety of subjects.
To me, she's a generalist. That's why she's able to connect the dots... even humans who are generalists tend to problem solve a lot better than specialists and make better advancements because they can connect information/data from one field with another.

Also, remember Hoshi Sato?
Or Uhura?
These two humans are prime examples of having uncanny ability to learn new languages quickly.
Gwyn may be the Vau N'akat equivalent of Hoshi and Uhura, or her ability may be relatively normal for a Vau N'akat (though Gwyn was probably being pushed hard from a very young age to learn all those things and so "normal" Vau N'akat children would probably start much slower than she did). Perhaps we may learn more about this once she meets other Vau N'akat on Solum.

I would agree Gwyn is a generalist - she's good in everything, but outside languages she doesn't really excel in any one field (unlike, say, Rok and Jankom). Dal is also a generalist (though he's not at, at this point, near Gwyn's level of general competence) in that he does see the big picture and he's the least naive of the bunch. I think Dal will have a difficult time as a de-facto cadet, because on the one hand he has yet to learn the discipline that will be required and on the other hand he's not a specialist who excels in a field, unlike Rok, Jankom and probably Zero. He may be suited for command one day, but he's got a ways to go especially using the Starfleet way.

In the same vein, if Gwyn would also join Starfleet if/once her mission to Solum is over (though we don't know when this will be or even if she may not stay there, or in the worst case she may not make it) she would again start with a serious backlog compared to the other 'Protogies'.

Gwyn leaving alone was an emotional moment for me, as it resonates strongly with aspects of real life. It's the equivalent of moving to another school/work while all your friends stay together to go to another one, far out of reach. Or the feeling of being excluded from a group (family/friends/work mates) you thought you were part of. Especially since her part of the story likely will de disconnected from all the rest, with the possible exception of an effect (should there be any) on the stability of the connection between the prime timeline and the alternate/future one. It's also striking that Gwyn didn't confide in any of her friends, and thus also did not get to ask advice, which also places her apart from the others. Was that her own decision or did Starfleet ask to keep everything confidential until they were ready to tell the others? Gwyn was certainly not an open book in the beginning, but she did open up towards the others.

As for protomatter... was Gwyn's heirloom described as Protomatter? Or was it just a version of programmable matter (aka, smart materials which resonate with Vau'N'A'Kat telepathic centres)?
I do mean the heirlooms, or whatever the general term would be. Heirloom implies it is something precious that is passed between generations, and that not every family may have such a thing (though whether as rare as, say, a Valyrian sword from GOT or as relatively abundant as jewelry is unknown). I don't know what it is, but it seems to work almost as if they have their own pet changeling.

I suspect one could do more with it than Gwyn did at the Borg cube, as the ability to move based on mind command combined with the ability to take various shapes would allow for sneak attacks in the back, for attacks from multiple angles or to damage equipment (connections etc) in the walls. Making a sword/bat'leth or club out of it is but a relatively limited use of it, I think. We see the Diviner, who has more experience, use it differently as a throwable weapon that can be used both to restrain or to pierce an opponent. Ascencia also changes her style of weapon(s) mid-fight. Gwyn is more adept at finding non-lethal/non-violent ways of using her heirloom.

So, whether or not the UFP is primitive (on average) to the Vau'N'A'Kat... eh, both sides excell in some areas and probably have weaknesses in others.
That would seem to be the case. As you say though, the UFP sometimes holds back deliberately, so the full extent of their knowledge may not have been clear to our favourite members of "The Order". The Diviner apparently did see promise in the UFP at first, so it may be interesting to see what changed his mind later.

did we see any Vau'N'A'Kat use telekinesis unrelatedly of their heirlooms? I don’t think so and assumed they had a link to their heirloom, not telekinesis.

think of the times a show runner or writer or the official site said that a comic or book was canon and was promptly ignored by subsequent series or movies.
Regarding telekinesis: that's correct, only in relation to the heirlooms. But they can do funky stuff with those. And then there is the whole "dissolve body" thing, though hopefully that is restricted to the Diviner and/or maybe something that has to be specifically chosen by the person dying.

As for something declared canon being ignored - it does not happen merely to comics or books. See the Gorn in Strange New Worlds vs TOS Arena, or the way the Klingon design for Discovery is being ignored by all the other present Trek shows. And there are certainly other examples where something that was previously established was contradicted later.
 
As for something declared canon being ignored - it does not happen merely to comics or books. See the Gorn in Strange New Worlds vs TOS Arena, or the way the Klingon design for Discovery is being ignored by all the other present Trek shows. And there are certainly other examples where something that was previously established was contradicted later.
TOS' Klingon is good example of shifting canon. But hang on to something, you might get dizzy. ;)

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Then you get the record scratch that is TMP
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Regarding telekinesis: that's correct, only in relation to the heirlooms. But they can do funky stuff with those.
them it could easily just be a propriety of the heirlooms and no telekinesis at all.

And then there is the whole "dissolve body" thing, though hopefully that is restricted to the Diviner and/or maybe something that has to be specifically chosen by the person dying.
yeah, the dissolving body thing opened up a whole can of worms.

See the Gorn in Strange New Worlds vs TOS Arena
these are a slightly different issue though: we have conflicting details in later material but usually not totally discarded backgrounds.
 
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