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Spoilers Star Trek: Prodigy 1x17 - "Ghost in the Machine"

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I'm pretty sure they didn't give a chit about any of that.

Folks who are really pissed off, very rarely think beyond what might happen after their vengeance is accomplished.
But the Vau N’Akat have no true motive for revenge, Starfleet would not pick sides in a civil war. If Starfleet did pick a side then it would mean that they would probably pick the side that they are most politically aligned or in agreement with. This would have been a vested interest for getting involved in the conflict meaning that they are not neutral. Starfleet could not be a neutral entity in another planets civil war if it got involved militarily. Or is that the whole point? Did Starfleet not even offer to mediate in a diplomatic capacity? That would have been a different angle, we are assuming that the help that was asked for by the Vau N’Akat was military, but perhaps they were asking for diplomatic help? They have not made this clear in this toon.
 
But the Vau N’Akat have no true motive for revenge, Starfleet would not pick sides in a civil war. If Starfleet did pick a side then it would mean that they would probably pick the side that they are most politically aligned or in agreement with. This would have been a vested interest for getting involved in the conflict meaning that they are not neutral. Starfleet could not be a neutral entity in another planets civil war if it got involved militarily. Or is that the whole point? Did Starfleet not even offer to mediate in a diplomatic capacity? That would have been a different angle, we are assuming that the help that was asked for by the Vau N’Akat was military, but perhaps they were asking for diplomatic help? They have not made this clear in this toon.

I think it’s easier for radicalized terrorists who take over and indoctrinate a civilization to blame an outside force for some influence on their society, and for having a better life than them — as they struggle and fight internally. Then they decide perpetrating a plot of mass destruction against those “foreign corrupting influences” would solve all of their problems.

It’s not a logical thing. It has happened over and over again, in almost the exact same way, here on earth.
 
As far as we know, only the Diviner and the Vindicator were able to actually survive the trip back in time.
I think it's safe to assume that at least some others also survived, but we won't see them (or hear of them) till someone decides to use them as plot points, either in later Prodigy seasons (possible S2, but more likely in later seasons assuming those get ordered) or even in a live action series. Though the latter may be less likely due to the make-up work that would be involved, as well as it not being an original creation of whatever show it would be on.

However, theoretically one could even turn up in Strange New Worlds, if someone was pulled significantly further into the past than the Diviner was.
 
I think it’s easier for radicalized terrorists who take over and indoctrinate a civilization to blame an outside force for some influence on their society, and for having a better life than them — as they struggle and fight internally. Then they decide perpetrating a plot of mass destruction against those “foreign corrupting influences” would solve all of their problems.

It’s not a logical thing. It has happened over and over again, in almost the exact same way, here on earth.
Are you saying that some form of terrorist group could have infiltrated the Vau N’Akat homeworld and caused the civil war, or could it have been a home grown uprising as a result of natural political unrest on their planet? What actually differentiates terrorists from freedom fighters, or one side from the other btw? :shrug:What morale guidelines or compasses would be used to decide which side in an internal planetary conflict is right or wrong, or is that for them to decide internally? What is the measure of humanity and how would it be applied across politically constructed borders? Major Kira was once labelled as a terrorist, as were members of the Maquis such as Chakotay and Cal Hudson. By the way, does anybody know if Chakotay actually had a first name? Or was Chakotay his first name, not his last which I has assumed? We might not know his last name, it could also have been his middle name. :shrug:
 
Oh right, I thought that the Vau N'Akat sent out the Living Construct on the Protostar as revenge because Starfleet would not help them out in their civil war? Sorry, this toon has too much for me to remember sometimes and I get a bit muddled.

The Vau N'Akat civil war was between those who wanted to embrace the Federation and their ideals and those who didn't. After the end of the Civil War, the survivors were angry and believed that that the Federation abandoned them by staying neutral in the Civil War.

The Protostar mission was to destroy the Federation in the past before first contact, and stop the Civil War from ever happening in the first place.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Vau_N'Akat#History
 
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The Vau N'Akat civil war was between those who wanted to embrace the Federation and their ideals and those who didn't. After the end of the Civil War, the survivors were angry and believed that that the Federation abandoned them by staying neutral in the Civil War.

The Protostar mission was to destroy the Federation in the past before first contact, and stop the Civil War from ever happening in the first place.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Vau_N'Akat#History
Well that’s a bit convoluted. But I get it now. Thank you. :bolian:

But if The Diviner changed the past, would it have ‘reset’ the Vau N'Akat timeline and erased first contact/the civil war like in Voyagers ‘Year of Hell’ when history was reset, or would it have created a parallel alternate history like in the Star Trek 2009 movie with the civil war still having happened from the prime Vau N'Akat perspective?

Speaking of which, if the Prodigy crew manage to stop the Romulan sun from going nova, this would mean that Nero would not need to go back in time for revenge against Vulcan in a similar fashion as to the Diviner going back in time for revenge against Starfleet. This would subsequently mean that neither the Romulan Empire or Vulcan are destroyed and that Spock does not need to travel back in time in his squid ship and get trapped in a cave.

This would erase the JJ Abrams universe and set all of Star Trek back to normal!
 
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The Vau N'Akat civil war was between those who wanted to embrace the Federation and their ideals and those who didn't. After the end of the Civil War, the survivors were angry and believed that that the Federation abandoned them by staying neutral in the Civil War.
One gets the impression that at least two sets/factions of Vau N'akat were angry with the Federation: those who thought the Federation to be a "primitive allegiance" that was intruding (Ascencia possibly among them, though that's not entirely clear yet), and those who actually were enticed by the Federation (the Diviner among them, according to Ascencia) but afterwards were bitterly disappointed that the Federation subsequently left them hung out to dry when this led to civil war.

In the latter case, a number of Vau N'akat must have felt abandoned and betrayed by Starfleet's refusal to help.They did not help those who wanted to embrace the Federation, refusing to take sides (I guess), even as it turned to war that got worse and worse.

This is likely the reason that the Diviner kept knowledge of the Federation from Gwyn - he realised she would be tempted as well.
 
One gets the impression that at least two sets/factions of Vau N'akat were angry with the Federation: those who thought the Federation to be a "primitive allegiance" that was intruding (Ascencia possibly among them, though that's not entirely clear yet), and those who actually were enticed by the Federation (the Diviner among them, according to Ascencia) but afterwards were bitterly disappointed that the Federation subsequently left them hung out to dry when this led to civil war.

In the latter case, a number of Vau N'akat must have felt abandoned and betrayed by Starfleet's refusal to help.They did not help those who wanted to embrace the Federation, refusing to take sides (I guess), even as it turned to war that got worse and worse.

This is likely the reason that the Diviner kept knowledge of the Federation from Gwyn - he realised she would be tempted as well.
But it would *only* have lead to civil war amongst the Vau N’akat if the Federation had offered them membership and half wanted to join and half did not. Just ‘seeing’ the Federation would not cause a civil war, there has never been an example of this in Star Trek before with other species. Prometheus class ships are beautiful ships though so I could imagine some of the Vau N’akat being jealous and wanting one for themselves and fighting over it. The Vau N’akat is a warp capable species therefore First Contact could have been initiated as per that protocol, but I am sure that the Federation would not have offered the Vau N’akat membership if there were any signs of internal political turmoil as this *could* potentially cause a civil war. This is why it was so hard for the Bajorans to gain entry in to the Federation after the Cardassian occupation and Dominion war. The Bajorans needed to prove themselves to the rest of the Federation and meet a certain standard.
 
It is also possible that only one half of the Vau N’akat had warp capability if there was indeed already civil unrest on their planet before the Prometheus showed up. Until the Vau N’akat had a unified planetary government and learnt to share this technology then they should not be offered membership, especially if only one planetary faction has warp drive. It is quite possible that the Vau N’akat will never join the Federation, or at least not for a very long time, though membership is always something that they could potentially strive for. Not everybody wants to be in this union though it would be nice if eventually all species were united under the Federation banner, making it one big galactic happy family; some form of Galactic Federation - but this would be something in the far future that Star Trek Discovery might have to work with one day if it lasts long enough. The Romulans and Klingons might even want to join the Federation one day when they see the benefits of membership. The Romulans may reunify with the Vulcans and become the Ni’var before they are ready to even begin thinking about Federation membership. Who knows, if the galaxy unites the aliens that live outside of the galaxy might see that galactic peace has been established and decide to make contact as per their first contact protocols. :techman:
 
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Well that’s a bit convoluted.
Not really. It's laid out pretty straight forward. Read the Memory-Alpha article I linked.

Just ‘seeing’ the Federation would not cause a civil war,
Part of the population wanted what the Federation offered, the Federation's ideals, and part of it didn't. That lead to civil war.

It's not that complicated or hard to understand.
 
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Part of the population wanted what the Federation offered, the Federation's ideals, and part of it didn't. That lead to civil war.
Exactly. We don't know yet the exact reason why the Vau N'akat society was so fractured about the contact with the Federation, there must have been major issues underneath. But what that was, is something we may learn in the next 3 episodes, or if not during season 2. In any case, both Vau N'akat (originally) for and against the Federation apparently feel very strongly that the (in)actions of Starfleet left something to be desired. This may lead to the prime directive being questioned on the show in later episodes, much like we expect the treatment of augments will be under scrutiny following Dal's application for Starfleet.

This episode did move the plot IMO and is certainly not pure filler; making contact with the Dauntless alone is a large change in the status quo. The reveal that the Construct is controlling holo-Janeway to some extent (and we don't know exactly from which point, though this may be from the time the Diviner was on board and possibly "woke" the construct or gave it instructions) is also something with plot consequences. And I wonder if the use of the holodeck to mislead the crew is also a device that may be re-used before the end of the season, possibly used by the teens this time.
 
But it would *only* have lead to civil war amongst the Vau N’akat if the Federation had offered them membership and half wanted to join and half did not. Just ‘seeing’ the Federation would not cause a civil war, there has never been an example of this in Star Trek before with other species. Prometheus class ships are beautiful ships though so I could imagine some of the Vau N’akat being jealous and wanting one for themselves and fighting over it. The Vau N’akat is a warp capable species therefore First Contact could have been initiated as per that protocol, but I am sure that the Federation would not have offered the Vau N’akat membership if there were any signs of internal political turmoil as this *could* potentially cause a civil war. This is why it was so hard for the Bajorans to gain entry in to the Federation after the Cardassian occupation and Dominion war. The Bajorans needed to prove themselves to the rest of the Federation and meet a certain standard.

The Bajorans were also all the better for it.
They had to go through a period of recovery/rebuilding in order to get themselves on track... otherwise, the UFP would have been setting a wrong precedent had they accepted Bajor right off the bat.

However, they DID send a contingent of SF officers to DS9 to be there in an admin fashion (and UFP DID send Bajor an industrial grade replicator to help them recover) - which would prevent the Cardassians from reconquering the Bajorans. What Bajor effectively did was driven off the occupational force, but the Cardassians had intentions of coming back to 'finish the job'. The UFP had a small window of opportunity to prevent that from happening, but they also couldn't openly just accept Bajor into UFP. So the next best thing was to establish a SF presence on DS9 and that's what protected Bajor and gave it ability to become independent and mature enough to eventually be offered membership into the Federation.

Obviously, the UFP DID 'interfere' here, but only in the case of preventing an outside force (the Cardassians) from possibly exterminating Bajorans out of existence, and I suppose in this particular case they were not directly interfering in the 'natural course of evolution of Bajor', but rather setting it back on track (by removing the cardassians from the equation).

In the case of the Vau'N'AKat, their conflict was internal... but the Diviner indicates that FC with UFP (a Prometheus class statship) caused a split on Solum... which is possible.
We've seen on other Trek shows that learning of existence of aliens can easily have a polarizing effect on society and cause internal problems because the species is forced to reconcile with the fact they aren't alone in the universe.

In the case of Vau'N'AKat, we don't know if they already were aware of other alien species in the Galaxy... but the way Prodigy told the story, it didn't seem like it.
They seemed to have been advanced enough to have Warp drive and other technology, but they appeared to be in a fairly secluded bit of the Delta Quadrant where not that many alien species might have been around... or the half of Solum which was against UFP in general was anti-alien life in general (the Diviner did describe them as 'weak' etc. - there's a sense of superiority here that is difficult to get by... the 'Order' in particular sees SF and UFP as 'less than').

The UFP couldn't interfere in what was clear an internal conflict. They also didn't do that in the case of Bajor during DS9 run (Bajor had a few internal issues to work out during the recovery period, but ultimately the UFP couldn't have interfered into those internal affairs - SF did deal with threats that were targeted directly at them, and exposed conspiracies and gave it to the Bajorans to deal with the situation as they saw fit).

Solum wasn't occupied by an external force, so SF had no need to leave a contingent there to help them recover from the occupation... Solum was in effect a victim of its own indigenous people.

As for whether some who were pro-UFP turned bad... those seemed to belong to 'The Order'. In probability not all who liked UFP started hating it for not taking sides or helping them, but I would say the 100 people who were part of The Order did and turned extreme (otherwise, the entirety of Solum would have been said to have turned against UFP - but it seems like a small radical group which survived Solum's conflict developed a bad perception of UFP due to their non-interference protocols and ended up becoming extremists who want to destroy SF and prevent FC from happening)... the Vindicator and Diviner being 2 of those 100 - the other 98 either didn't make it through the wormhole and died along with their ships, or they were scattered in different time periods with heavy damage to their ships and are no real threat to anyone (perhaps).... who knows.

I'm hoping the crew of the Prometheus class starship did manage to explain the principles behind the P.D. and why SF can't interfere into planetary internal affairs... or at least they would have, but bitter individuals just didn't care (and we've seen how people who are emotionally compromised can ignore those rules).
 
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One gets the impression that at least two sets/factions of Vau N'akat were angry with the Federation: those who thought the Federation to be a "primitive allegiance" that was intruding (Ascencia possibly among them, though that's not entirely clear yet), and those who actually were enticed by the Federation (the Diviner among them, according to Ascencia) but afterwards were bitterly disappointed that the Federation subsequently left them hung out to dry when this led to civil war.

In the latter case, a number of Vau N'akat must have felt abandoned and betrayed by Starfleet's refusal to help.They did not help those who wanted to embrace the Federation, refusing to take sides (I guess), even as it turned to war that got worse and worse.

This is likely the reason that the Diviner kept knowledge of the Federation from Gwyn - he realised she would be tempted as well.

I’m reminded of the Afghani translators who helped American troops against the Taliban and promised to bring freedom to their country, only to suddenly be left out to try due to shifting political winds. Perhaps some of the Vau N’akat assumed once they went to war, they’d get backup from the Federation to overcome the civil unrest only to be told “no, we can’t intervene.”

There’s also the whole post Utopia Planitia Federation isolationism that probably didn’t help either.
 
I’m reminded of the Afghani translators who helped American troops against the Taliban and promised to bring freedom to their country, only to suddenly be left out to try due to shifting political winds.
That's the vibe I'm getting, too. Though obviously, Ascencia nor the Diviner have told us what really was the root cause of their internal conflict. I'm expecting Janeway, or Gwyn, or someone else not on their side to ask that question in the next few episodes (if they get the opportunity to chat with Ascencia and/or Diviner).
 
If he's really an augment, wouldn't they have to give him some sort of special dispensation ala Julian Bashir? Otherwise he might be carted off to a camp or something.

Since Dal had no say in his own creation, I'd say that'd be unlikely in the extreme. He didn't ask to be made.

Bashir didn't either, but at least he knew what he was. Julian knew from the get-go that he was genetically enhanced. And chose to enlist in Starfleet despite that.

Dal, OTOH, had no idea who or what he was. So he can hardly be held responsible.
 
Since Dal had no say in his own creation, I'd say that'd be unlikely in the extreme. He didn't ask to be made.

Bashir didn't either, but at least he knew what he was. Julian knew from the get-go that he was genetically enhanced. And chose to enlist in Starfleet despite that.

Dal, OTOH, had no idea who or what he was. So he can hardly be held responsible.

The Augments back on Enterprise (mid 22nd century) also weren't asked to be made, but, they did develop negative tendencies as a result of being raised by Soong who had unresolved issues with Earth and SF (which the kids picked up on and likely followed in his footsteps - its not their genetics that made them aggressive, its being raised in an environment which fostered negative tendencies towards Earth and people who 'feared augments').

At any rate, Dal at least made the effort to do good deeds in the name of SF, but right now, his track record with actual SF is spotty at best (one which real Janeway already picked up on that they are just kids who found themselves in a bad situation).
 
I don’t know about that: the points of those augments (and already back in space seed, actually) was that with greater intelligence they also got a bigger ego and had therefore domineering tendencies. I don’t get those tendencies from bashir or Dahl, though, so it seems to me that not all augments are necessarily the same. Which makes a lot of sense but goes further to underline that the humans have an approach to genetics that is dictated by fear, not by logic. Which of course was Phlox’s point of view on Enterprise.
 
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