Spoilers Star Trek: Prodigy 1x10 - "A Moral Star, Part 2"

[JoaquinSlowly]

Fair enough. But I seem to understand that the Diviner is on the side of the isolationists in the first place.

Oh, most definitely! ‪‪In my thinking this would be a post-Medusan madness Diviner, perhaps having seen the error of his ways, or just Gwyn and the Protostar crew taking it upon themselves to try to nip the movement in the bud before it could begin to take hold in their culture, before it splits it apart.

 

[jackoverfull]

Could be a plan.

 

[Deks]

watch "dreamcatcher" and pay attention to gwyn.
what makes you think that moment is within minutes of them leaving him there?
why would they not?

The scene showing the Diviner at Tars Lamora likely didn't happen within minutes of them leaving there.
It probably happened later... but again, that scene leaves A LOT of unanswered questions:
How do the kids expect the Diviner to survive without his suit? Long term, he can't.
Have the kids reprogrammed his robots to care for him (provide him basic hygiene, food, etc.)?
Have the kids fixed the internal power supply of Tars Lamora to allow for gravity and breathable atmosphere?

The problem with the scene is that it could have at least been rendered in a way showing the Diviner doing what he's doing with a 'modified' version of his suit to only supply the liquid he needs for survival and a few of his Watchers 'watching' over him.
That at least would have provided much needed context without leaving most vieweres to think he was just left to die (when you think about it).

 

[Search4]

Or the Protostar or Dauntless could leave a standard warning buoy. Or send an email to Starfleet. Or a message explaining the mess. That’s the beauty of time travel. It really wouldn’t be that hard to stop First Contact unless it’s an accident or something.

 

[jackoverfull]

Or unless the planet is about to discover warp anyway...

 

[Deks]

Or the Protostar or Dauntless could leave a standard warning buoy. Or send an email to Starfleet. Or a message explaining the mess. That’s the beauty of time travel. It really wouldn’t be that hard to stop First Contact unless it’s an accident or something.

I already thought about that.
The problem lies in the ship's software (and some other things).

How do we know a copy of the Diviner software isn't sent out every time a ship establishes communications with someone and would ONLY affect Starfleet's ships if it gets in contact with them.

That STILL however didn't explain why Dal hadn't tried contacting Starfleet when Zero showed them that they have an option to either go to Starfleet or back to Tars Lamora.
Dal could have still implemented the plan and send a message to Starfleet explaining the situation - but we don't know if such a message would enact Diviner's plan in action to begin with.

Holo Janeway portrayed the situation before that contacting Starfleet was possible/an option.

So that's a possible plot hole.

Another potential issue is that the Diviner said to Gwyn on the holodeck to help him ARM the weapon.
What I got from this was that the weapon wasn't armed right now and that even if the Protostar comes into contact with another SF ship, the software wouldn't be transmitted or do what it was supposed to do... but then Gwyn backtracked and just perceived that no contact is the only option.

Obvioulsy, with Gwyn losing her memory, it will be interesting to see how the kids/crew realize they have a dangerous piece of software onboard (and one possible option would be that the Dauntless will potentially come close to the Protostar, but then the software will TRY to self-activate - this is how the kids could discover its function and then choose to run away from the Dauntless instead (creating a perception for the Dauntless crew that they are thieves - and sensors would obviously show them SF crew is not manning the Protostar - and with communications being out of the question, well, that creates a problem).

I wonder though if the kids/crew could create a separate message buoy and record a message using 'clean' SF equipment that didn't contain the code and leave the buoy for the Dauntless to find and read - which again would depend on how widespread the Vau'ka'Nat code in the Protostar is.

EDIT: One possible solution to this conundrum would be to say that the code has infiltrated every ship system and that even composing a message and leave it as a warning beacon wouldn't work because a copy of the code would automatically find itself there.

Though this could be potentially circumvented by creating an EMPTY bouy (aka no pre-installed software)... and program it externally with Zero, Gwyn's and Rokh's help (while simultaneously preventing it from connecting with the ship systems - which would prevent the Diviner code from infiltrating it.

That way, the kids could leave a 'clean'/safe message for Dauntless... but there's no reason to think that this would convince Admiral Janeway or her crew - actually, it would be great if things DID turn out this way, and Admiral Janeway decided she wouldn't just go on a word of a few kids who are controlling a SF ship and still decided in pursuing them, thinking that what the kids said was a lie.

 

[Search4]

A piece of paper beamed over.
There are many ways to communicate if need be.

 

[Deks]

A piece of paper beamed over.
There are many ways to communicate if need be.

For that, the shields would need to be lowered to beam the paper onboard (which isn't ideal, because that gives the Dauntless an opportunity to beam a security detail onboard and take over the ship... which then opens comms with the Dauntless via the Protostar, and bam).

Also, how do we know the software wouldn't activate in close proximity to a SF ship?

I agree there are many ways to communicate if need be, but this is an era in which digital contact is pretty much used all the time.
Even Neelix was surprised to see Chakotay writing a personal log about Kellen (I think that was her name) who secreted pheromones that erase people's memories of her species.

Written messages on pieces of paper aren't exactly something that these kids would probably even THINK as a way to communicate.
It may be something a SF crewmember might think of... but the kids? Eh... doubtful. We don't even know how many of the kids are capable of writing.
Reading and comprehension? Sure... but writing? Not necessarily.

 

[Deks]

Could be a plan.

Potentially, but here's my problem with it:
Even if this were to happen (and Solum avoided its demise), how would the Diviner and Gwyn that exist in 2383 continue to exist?

The sequence of events would have been fundamentally altered... and the only way this would work is that the original timeline in which Solum did have FC continues to exist (Same would have to apply to the Endgame alternate Future from which admiral Janeway came).

The Kelvin movies seem to confirm this is how time travel would effectively work (since the Prime Timeline remains intact)... or maybe different methods of Time Travel result in different outcomes (some people and timelines could end up erased, while others would remain separate as alternates).

 

[jackoverfull]

As you write, time travel in Trek in inconsistent enough to allow for this and other occurrences.

 

[Danja]

What I got from this was that the weapon wasn't armed right now and that even if the Protostar comes into contact with another SF ship, the software wouldn't be transmitted or do what it was supposed to do... but then Gwyn backtracked and just perceived that no contact is the only option.

Obvioulsy, with Gwyn losing her memory, it will be interesting to see how the kids/crew realize they have a dangerous piece of software onboard (and one possible option would be that the Dauntless will potentially come close to the Protostar, but then the software will TRY to self-activate - this is how the kids could discover its function and then choose to run away from the Dauntless instead (creating a perception for the Dauntless crew that they are thieves - and sensors would obviously show them SF crew is not manning the Protostar - and with communications being out of the question, well, that creates a problem).

Maybe the kids could try to reason with the software? ("Warhead", VOY)

 

[Deks]

Maybe the kids could try to reason with the software? ("Warhead", VOY)

It's possible, but I don't think the Diviner would have created such a potential liability.
The sure fire way would be to create a malicious type algorithm with a singular purpose (infect other SF ships/systems and turn them against each other).
If you had an AI based system capable of its own decision making, then you introduce a potential flaw into the system.

 

[Danja]

It's possible, but I don't think the Diviner would have created such a potential liability.
The sure fire way would be to create a malicious type algorithm with a singular purpose (infect other SF ships/systems and turn them against each other).
If you had an AI based system capable of its own decision making, then you introduce a potential flaw into the system.

Perhaps ... But it wouldn't be the first time Trek has gone down a crazy path.

 

[Deks]

Perhaps ... But it wouldn't be the first time Trek has gone down a crazy path.

Well, it wouldn't be as crazy as one thinks.
I can see the reasoning behind using an AI instead of a simpler algorithm... though in that case, you'd introduce an ADAPTIVE algorithm rather than an actual AI.
This function (adaptive algorithm) exists and was seen in Trek - example being when Seska reprogrammed Tuvok's 'Insurrection Alpha' training program to rewrite itself so it ends up killing Tuvok and Paris... or the Kobayashi Maru simulation - both are examples of simulations which adapt to the user so it ends in a very specific result.

So, there are options to consider... but I'm still curious just how far into the system this Diviner's weapon reached and whether its actually armed or not... and could the kids/crew devise a different way of warning the Dauntless and SF to keep their distance until they can find a way to disarm it.

 

[jackoverfull]

Maybe the kids could try to reason with the software? ("Warhead", VOY)

given that on Star Trek reasoning with computers ends with them blowing up or shutting down it might be better to avoid doing it in this instance.

 

[JoaquinSlowly]

The Kelvin movies seem to confirm this is how time travel would effectively work (since the Prime Timeline remains intact)... or maybe different methods of Time Travel result in different outcomes (some people and timelines could end up erased, while others would remain separate as alternates).

As you write, time travel in Trek in inconsistent enough to allow for this and other occurrences.

Exactly. We have other examples of time travel where people effectively change the past and still exist. For instance, in Voyager’s Future’s End, and in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home Time travelers alter their own pasts and continue to exist afterwards.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ And don't forget Tasha Yar...

 

[JoaquinSlowly]

^ And don't forget Tasha Yar...

Thanks! That’s a very pertinent example.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Although it could be argued that the time travel in "Future's End" and ST IV wasn't altering the past, but fulfilling it...just a part of what always occurred.

Just like ST:First Contact.

In this case, though: Assuming that 1) the Protostar is the ship that's due to make first contact with Solum, and 2) that first contact has yet to occur, perhaps the Diviner's actions have already changed history? Think about it...

 

[JoaquinSlowly]

In an interview from TrekMovie regarding the episode with Aaron Waltke he indicated that in the Diviner’s future history, first contact wasn’t with the Protostar.

Given all of that, I think it is safe to conclude that the Federation’s exploration efforts in the Delta Quadrant are nearing Solum and will attempt to make first contact soon, but the Protostar came to them later. The Protostar is viewed by The Diviner as the Vau N’Akat’s “salvation”—part of a plan to use the ship to prevent the Federation from ever reaching Solum, thus sparing his civilization from the promises of other worlds that tore them apart. Ideas can be viewed as dangerous things to a society that may or may not be ready for them. Hence, why he was reticent to go back to Solum before his mission was finished.