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Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 3x08 - "Surrender"

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That makes sense, but it's a bit in tension with the heavy implication earlier that Worf was Raffi's handler. I can understand describing agents as subcontractors, but this makes Starfleet Intelligence seem more like a set of cells (which would make sense in the current context) or an MLM. Weird then that Ro says she has 2 agents, which in a cell structure is not something she would know about.

She has Worf. Worf has Raffi. She doesn’t need to know *who* it is to know how many — and prior to her showing up, she’s had a communication with both of them on La Sirena, so at that point she knows.
And probably rolled her eyes that they are all linked by Picard. Who has just shown up on her official screens with a wanted sticker next to Riker.
One of those moments where the ship shook wasn’t weapons fire. It was just Ro’s eye roll hitting subspace and rippling out into the universe.
But then, she knew it was coming because of wanted man Jack Crusher.
Guinan got through a *lot* of Bajoran Spring wine that night, and Ro was still hungover when she got to the Titan. She loved the dim lighting, and it’s why she didn’t mention it.
 
Fundamentally, she didn’t then do that at least.

Though it seems like that's because Riker 'broke' and handed over the compromised code? (Which she shouldn't have fallen for, she seems to know a lot!)

I really don't like how casual they are being about torture compared to eg TNG.
 
She has Worf. Worf has Raffi. She doesn’t need to know *who* it is to know how many — and prior to her showing up, she’s had a communication with both of them on La Sirena, so at that point she knows.
And probably rolled her eyes that they are all linked by Picard. Who has just shown up on her official screens with a wanted sticker next to Riker.
One of those moments where the ship shook wasn’t weapons fire. It was just Ro’s eye roll hitting subspace and rippling out into the universe.
But then, she knew it was coming because of wanted man Jack Crusher.
Guinan got through a *lot* of Bajoran Spring wine that night, and Ro was still hungover when she got to the Titan. She loved the dim lighting, and it’s why she didn’t mention it.

You're right but in a cell structure, if she's Worf's handler and Worf is Raffi's handler, ideally she wouldn't even know how many people Worf has.
 
You're right but in a cell structure, if she's Worf's handler and Worf is Raffi's handler, ideally she wouldn't even know how many people Worf has.

She might still not, but she’s just had a chat with both of them. She may even have other agents herself. Would be hilarious if one was Tom Riker — who shows up at the end as her lover at her funeral. Awkward xD
 
Yup, was just gonna say that. Star Trek in general fetishises torture. Always has. Agony Booth, anyone?

Yeah that was the moment I thought Discovery had gone too far, when it was Georgiou's duty to torture Mirror Burnham until she was redeemed. Couldn't look at the show the same way after that.
 
I take the whole “I’m a subcontractor” line to mean.

I am not part of Starfleet Intelligence, I’ve got another job but I’ve take leave or something after Ro came to see me about Changelings and it became apparent she couldn’t trust any of the officially established bits of Starfleet Intelligence.
 
I take the whole “I’m a subcontractor” line to mean.

I am not part of Starfleet Intelligence, I’ve got another job but I’ve take leave or something after Ro came to see me about Changelings and it became apparent she couldn’t trust any of the officially established bits of Starfleet Intelligence.

Out of universe, I can appreciate they're just trying to keep it murky and avoid any suggestion that Worf just sits behind a desk all day reading reports.
 
Agony Booths go way back to Season 2 of TOS?

I can still hear Chekov's weird scream in my head now.

Correct but our heroes don't use them. Using them is proof that the mirror people are evil. In fact in the mirror episodes of DS9 one of our heroes scolds the humans for torturing someone, Intendant Kira I think.
 
When has he got cosy with crusher?
I do not see an unusual number of contrivances or plot holes.

Well, he's hardly been distant towards her, which would be a justifiable response given what she has denied him for over twenty years. And you're deflecting: my question was has he mentioned Laris at all over the course of this show?

As for contrivances, plot holes and the like, I'd be here for quite some time if I mentioned all the ones I've noticed. And they're increasing with each episode. Now I'm very aware that as with any piece of storytelling you have to suspend your disbelief at points because you're not watching real life play out: there's a certain amount of sleight of hand and manipulation involved from the filmmakers, but it becomes increasingly difficult to disengage your mental faculties for this extended period of time, and willingly accept a season just because it has some of your favourite characters in it. That's not enough. It has to make a bit of sense too.

I'll just highlight one from the last episode to illustrate my point. Vadic assuming control of the Titan (which was ridiculously contrived too) and threatening to execute hostages. This doesn't work for quite a number of reasons. First of all, she has control of the entire ship. Lock them up, transport them or corral them into certain areas just like Jack did to you in the last episode. Actually, they're human beings.... just gas them. So that's one reason it makes zero sense.

And why is a group of highly trained Starfleet officers still sharing space with her on the bridge? The bridge. And even sillier still, they're not bound or gagged. Drag them into another area that limits the possibility of them taking back the ship.

Another reason is that generally speaking with hostage situations in films the villain is trying to extract information or unearth conspirators/heroes. Basically they're in the dark about something or someone. Or want something that they can't get their hands on. Kruge killed David in SFS because he wanted the Enterprise and the secrets of Genesis. There's no secret for Vadic concerning Jack. She knows who "he really is" and yet she plays out this little act, and it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Hasn't it been impressed upon her a few times over that time is running out? Isn't he dangerous? It's a juggling act, designed to excite an audience, with very little advancement of the plot.

She's assumed control of the Titan and yet Jack can miraculously join her on the bridge with a bomb/force field in his hand? This is a villain who from the very start seemed to have an in depth knowledge of Starfleet and yet she can't control one of their ships? Even the lifts? And then she's sucked out of the hatch, having essentially teased us about Jack for eight episodes. And she dies in space. Sorry, she's killed, because writer's didn't need her, her crew or her ship anymore. The plot of this entire episode doesn't hold up to any degree of scrutiny.
 
Archer famously did it but I never know where Enterprise falls on the Old Trek Good, New Trek bad argument timeline. I expect where ever it needs to to make your point.

janeway never actually harms the guy right? And chakotay rescues him, and it seems clear that she has gone too far.

archer I can’t defend
 
Well, he's hardly been distant towards her, which would be a justifiable response given what she has denied him for over twenty years. And you're deflecting: my question was has he mentioned Laris at all over the course of this show?

As for contrivances, plot holes and the like, I'd be here for quite some time if I mentioned all the ones I've noticed. And they're increasing with each episode. Now I'm very aware that as with any piece of storytelling you have to suspend your disbelief at points because you're not watching real life play out: there's a certain amount of sleight of hand and manipulation involved from the filmmakers, but it becomes increasingly difficult to disengage your mental faculties for this extended period of time, and willingly accept a season just because it has some of your favourite characters in it. That's not enough. It has to make a bit of sense too.

I'll just highlight one from the last episode to illustrate my point. Vadic assuming control of the Titan (which was ridiculously contrived too) and threatening to execute hostages. This doesn't work for quite a number of reasons. First of all, she has control of the entire ship. Lock them up, transport them or corral them into certain areas just like Jack did to you in the last episode. Actually, they're human beings.... just gas them. So that's one reason it makes zero sense.

And why is a group of highly trained Starfleet officers still sharing space with her on the bridge? The bridge. And even sillier still, they're not bound or gagged. Drag them into another area that limits the possibility of them taking back the ship.

Another reason is that generally speaking with hostage situations in films the villain is trying to extract information or unearth conspirators/heroes. Basically they're in the dark about something or someone. Or want something that they can't get their hands on. Kruge killed David in SFS because he wanted the Enterprise and the secrets of Genesis. There's no secret for Vadic concerning Jack. She knows who "he really is" and yet she plays out this little act, and it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Hasn't it been impressed upon her a few times over that time is running out? Isn't he dangerous? It's a juggling act, designed to excite an audience, with very little advancement of the plot.

She's assumed control of the Titan and yet Jack can miraculously join her on the bridge with a bomb/force field in his hand? This is a villain who from the very start seemed to have an in depth knowledge of Starfleet and yet she can't control one of their ships? Even the lifts? And then she's sucked out of the hatch, having essentially teased us about Jack for eight episodes. And she dies in space. Sorry, she's killed, because writer's didn't need her, her crew or her ship anymore. The plot of this entire episode doesn't hold up to any degree of scrutiny.

you’re not wrong you’re just an …
 
janeway never actually harms the guy right? And chakotay rescues him, and it seems clear that she has gone too far.

archer I can’t defend

She threatens to let the lifeforms devour him. Physical harm doesn’t have to occur for it to be torture.


The UN definition:
1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
 
She threatens to let the lifeforms devour him. Physical harm doesn’t have to occur for it to be torture.


The UN definition:
1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

oh I definitely agree, and I think chakotay should have mutinied.
 
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