Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 2x09 - "Hide and Seek"

[WarpFactorZ]

Picard saw this mother as an old woman!! I mean... That whole aspect of the season doesn't make sense or add up.

It adds up perfectly. The lines from "Where No One Has Gone Before" are:

(Picard turns a corner and meets an elderly woman sitting at a tea table)
MAMAN: (french accent) You look tense, Jean-Luc. Come and have a cup of tea.
PICARD: Maman?
MAMAN: I'll make it good and strong, the way you like it. We will have a nice long talk.
PICARD: This can't be. You've been
MAMAN: Dead? But I'm always with you, you know that.

Nothing in that dialogue is contradicted by the events in Ep. 9 (except the French accent part).

 

[Deks]

Should have made the show about Kirk. Shatner is older but he seems more energetic.
Plus I think he has a better grasp on the character than Stewart has on Picard.

the Caelinar is something unique in the novelVerse. Coda explained that the Borg origins are different in each timeline.

I composed my reply based on the previous response... which pertained to the NovelVerse (not actual canon).
For me, the novels were never canon... and we knew this much at least... only the live action series, the movies and animated shows are actually canon.

Star Trek Online is also NOT canon... despite some ship designs from it finding their way into the official canon (aka, only bits and pieces that Paramount decides to incorporate).

 

[Trekker4747]

I’m always late to the party. I thought it was the strongest episode since the start of the season, even though most of it was shot so dark it was a struggle to even see what was happening. Picard’s flashbacks were handled must more powerfully and effectively here (rendering the trip into his head by Tallinn redundant and largely unnecessary).

There’s a lot to unpack, but I have to say I have mixed feelings about what it does with the Borg. First of all, the proto-Borg weren’t terribly exciting, and we didn’t really get to see many of them up close. I expected something a little scarier somehow. While the Jurati/Borg Queen conflict was well done, I’m not sure I entirely bought it. Of all the people that have ever been assimilated (in this case by the Queen, no less, who presumably is far more powerful than the average drone), why is Jurati the only one who successfully manages to challenge and transform the Borg’s entire reason for being? It’s not like Agnes even seemed to have a particularly strong personality—in the first season she was shown as intelligent, yes, but more than a little neurotic and weak minded (and fairly easily pushed to commit murder).

The idea that the Borg always lose in all universes just doesn’t work for me. Sure, we’ve seen them lose a lot in Star Trek (and especially Voyager) but that’s simply because of the conventions of television and because the heroes always have to win (not helped by the fact Voyager overused the Borg terribly). The Borg were arguably the most terrifying villain Trek ever created because they were this unstoppable, unreasonable force of nature. That’s what made them scary—they couldn’t be reasoned with.

This episode retcons them as simply being lonely and looking for love. Alison Pill sells the hell out of it, but I still can’t believe on the basis of one little speech, the Borg have now agreed to become the good Samaritans of the universe and ask politely before they assimilate. It’s a very Star Trekky take, I know. I even kind of…kind of…like the audacity of it, but ultimately I am not convinced. I’ll see how it’s addressed in the finale, but I don’t buy it right now. To me, it would be kind of like if the writers expected us to believe the Klingons would trade their batleths for flowers and follow in the footsteps of Tongo Rad’s Space Hippies, doing away with violence in order to perform acts of kindness across the galaxy.

We know the Borg are winners in at least one universe.

 

[Deks]

I’m always late to the party. I thought it was the strongest episode since the start of the season, even though most of it was shot so dark it was a struggle to even see what was happening. Picard’s flashbacks were handled must more powerfully and effectively here (rendering the trip into his head by Tallinn redundant and largely unnecessary).

There’s a lot to unpack, but I have to say I have mixed feelings about what it does with the Borg. First of all, the proto-Borg weren’t terribly exciting, and we didn’t really get to see many of them up close. I expected something a little scarier somehow. While the Jurati/Borg Queen conflict was well done, I’m not sure I entirely bought it. Of all the people that have ever been assimilated (in this case by the Queen, no less, who presumably is far more powerful than the average drone), why is Jurati the only one who successfully manages to challenge and transform the Borg’s entire reason for being? It’s not like Agnes even seemed to have a particularly strong personality—in the first season she was shown as intelligent, yes, but more than a little neurotic and weak minded (and fairly easily pushed to commit murder).

The idea that the Borg always lose in all universes just doesn’t work for me. Sure, we’ve seen them lose a lot in Star Trek (and especially Voyager) but that’s simply because of the conventions of television and because the heroes always have to win (not helped by the fact Voyager overused the Borg terribly). The Borg were arguably the most terrifying villain Trek ever created because they were this unstoppable, unreasonable force of nature. That’s what made them scary—they couldn’t be reasoned with.

This episode retcons them as simply being lonely and looking for love. Alison Pill sells the hell out of it, but I still can’t believe on the basis of one little speech, the Borg have now agreed to become the good Samaritans of the universe and ask politely before they assimilate. It’s a very Star Trekky take, I know. I even kind of…kind of…like the audacity of it, but ultimately I am not convinced. I’ll see how it’s addressed in the finale, but I don’t buy it right now. To me, it would be kind of like if the writers expected us to believe the Klingons would trade their batleths for flowers and follow in the footsteps of Tongo Rad’s Space Hippies, doing away with violence in order to perform acts of kindness across the galaxy.

There's something to be said about change.
While I also found it a bit unlikely that the Borg would lose in every timeline... one thing to keep in mind that despite their collective mind and adaptation, other species could and would have banned together with more advanced technology and destroyed the Collective.
In essence, the Borg could easily serve as a catalyst of unifying all other space faring species against them and incalculable tactics which could be used to overcome them.

If the Federation was able to find ways to fight and defeat the Borg (nevermind the Confederation which is imminently more ruthless than the UFP and likely used methods UFP never would have due to evolved principles and ideals), then you can rest assured non UFP organisations and species would have too.

I have to say though how that one speech from Jurati was sort of 'too quick' to change things for the Queen. I think her screen time and story should have been fleshed out a lot more than that in order to reach that conclusion... then again, the Queen was almost never in a position of being so cut off from the Collective... she was a singular entity at that point and the 'playing field' was more leveled when she shared the body with Jurati (didn't have billions/trillions of minds to draw from - otherwise, Agnes would have simply been absorbed) and while yes she had those Borgified commandoes, the assimilation was not exactly 'on par' with what she grew accustomed to... so, with those commandoes, the Queen was winning the battle, and Agnes had to act quickly.

The queen as portrayed here was looking for connection... a more meaningful connection beyond a simple drone becoming part of the whole.
She effectively wanted equals... despite claiming otherwise.

 

[Charles Phipps]

There's also the fact the Borg are not the top dog in the galaxy. They're the top dog among mortals.

In Mass Effect terms, the Borg are the Geth.

But Star Trek has Reapers, Leviathans, and beings beyond even them.

As we saw with VOY's Species 7842, there are things they can't handle.

 

[jackoverfull]

We know the Borg are winners in at least one universe.

If you are referring to the universe from parallels we know that they destroyed the federation, but they might have been destroyed by someone else a few years later for all we know.

The queen as portrayed here was looking for connection... a more meaningful connection beyond a simple drone becoming part of the whole.
She effectively wanted equals... despite claiming otherwise

just like in first contact and voyager.

 

[DaveyNY]

Picard saw this mother as an old woman!! I mean... That whole aspect of the season doesn't make sense or add up.

I think you must have missed the part where he actually mentions that in the past he's imagined that his mother survived and grew old.

Perhaps watching the episodes with just a little less intent to find fault, would improve your retention of what actually occurs.

 

[Guy Gardener]

We know the Borg are winners in at least one universe.

In one of Christopher's Time Cops Novels, the cops are super pissed that Janeway isn't being punished for using Admiral Janeway's advanced tech to destroy the Borg and pollute the time line with advanced tech. It's then explained by their superiors that this is the only timeline where the Borg do not win, and the future they come from, and the last survival of nonBorg life multiversally, is dependent on Janeway's time crimes.

 

[fireproof78]

It adds up perfectly. The lines from "Where No One Has Gone Before" are:

(Picard turns a corner and meets an elderly woman sitting at a tea table)
MAMAN: (french accent) You look tense, Jean-Luc. Come and have a cup of tea.
PICARD: Maman?
MAMAN: I'll make it good and strong, the way you like it. We will have a nice long talk.
PICARD: This can't be. You've been
MAMAN: Dead? But I'm always with you, you know that.

Nothing in that dialogue is contradicted by the events in Ep. 9 (except the French accent part).

Accents are easily mutable things.

 

[cooleddie74]

T'Pau's changed and a lot between 2154 and 2267.

 

[Jedi Marso]

We know the Borg are winners in at least one universe.

That would have made for an awesome 'Mirror Universe' style episode, maybe like the way Enterprise handled it- no crossover, you just drop in on those characters and see whazzup. An episode or 2 of Captain Riker and the shattered remains of the Enterprise crew trying to survive in a quadrant overrun with the Borg.

 

[Jedi Marso]

It is interesting to know that the Borg Queen’s dress is made of Borg Nano probes and can easily be redeployed on to a new host Queen.

It was also interesting to note that the Borg apparently like cleavage as much as humans do.

 

[cooleddie74]

The William Ware Theiss view of wardrobe never went far even though he's now no longer with us. Trek will always have a touch of Theiss to spice things up in how skin is exposed and no matter how many decades have passed.

 

[Guy Gardener]

That would have made for an awesome 'Mirror Universe' style episode, maybe like the way Enterprise handled it- no crossover, you just drop in on those characters and see whazzup. An episode or 2 of Captain Riker and the shattered remains of the Enterprise crew trying to survive in a quadrant overrun with the Borg.

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[gweeps]

It was also interesting to note that the Borg apparently like cleavage as much as humans do.

Ha ha yes. What she should have done though is turned the red dress black.

 

[Timofnine]

That would have made for an awesome 'Mirror Universe' style episode, maybe like the way Enterprise handled it- no crossover, you just drop in on those characters and see whazzup. An episode or 2 of Captain Riker and the shattered remains of the Enterprise crew trying to survive in a quadrant overrun with the Borg.

With The Borg chasing Captain Riker and the Enterprise crew around the galaxy with garlands of flowers and messages of love….

 

[Akiraprise]

8/10
A decent enough episode. Couple points that stuck out to me.

• The proto-drones becoming Soong's and the Queens de-facto goons were dumb. The assimilation process seemed to grant them no augmentations of any kind. Using their green laser sights to indicate scanning was stupid. Like if this very narrow pin prick of light didn't strike something their target gets a pass. They were slow to target acquire and inaccurate. Two un-enhanced females were able to get past pretty much all of them with ease. Stormtrooper level useless.
  
• Brent Spiner played the mustache twirling Adam Soong villain well. He found that hidden entrance really fast. His Batman-esque flash bang escape was on point.
• The acted like Rios was going to be useless in a fight with one bullet wound to his arm just so they had a somewhat plausible reason to get the doctor and her son out of harms way. Seriously, Rios isn't that much of a wuss. Their dialogue dumbstruck me.
  
• As others pointed out the Picard flashbacks did kind of take you out of the action at inopportune times. However, I did like that they showed Maurice not being a horrible monster and the scenes with Picard's mother committing suicide were well acted.
  
• A+ for the homage to WNMHGB and the tea scene with Picard's mother in the corridor.
  
• Annie and Alison's Borg Queen portrayal was again on point and wrapped up pretty well. The Queen has always seemed to want someone to hang out with. Locutus and Seven were examples. Do I buy that people are going to willingly want to be assimilated by a kinder gentler Borg collective? Not really. But it's a nice thought. Also nanoprobe wardrobe for the win!
  
• D- grade for Seven's comment about Starfleet denying her entrance and a commission even with Janeway's support. "Nope, not buying it." Said it out loud as soon as Seven said the words. Especially not from the Starfleet prior to the Mars attack. Starfleet would have welcomed her, her experience, and her knowledge with open arms after all of the Delta Quadrant trials they went through.
  
• How did hologram Elnor get all of his thoughts, even those just before death?

Overall it was an enjoyable ride and I am looking forward to the finale next week. Patrick Stewart's acting though... I dunno. I think it's some of the intonation that throws me. Patrick's age has slowed him down considerably. Not trying to slam him, just an observation. Part of me thinks 91 year old William Shatner would have had an easier time with the rigors of acting on this show.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

How is it even remotely possible for the Elnor hologram to have identical memories to the real person?

Especially as it was never established that Federation/Confederation computers of the 25th century have a telepathic component and are able to scan for thoughts and contents of minds.

Have i missed something?

 

[Roald]

How is it even remotely possible for the Elnor hologram to have identical memories to the real person?

Especially as it was never established that Federation/Confederation computers of the 25th century have a telepathic component and are able to scan for thoughts and contents of minds.

Have i missed something?

The ship recorded his last words, the hologram extrapolated what he must have thought, he was trying to comfort Raffi, whatever… we’ve had holograms of Einstein and DaVinci, reacting according to their characteristics… would it be too far fetched the computer can do the same for Elnor?

 

[Yistaan]

Do I buy that people are going to willingly want to be assimilated by a kinder gentler Borg collective? Not really. But it's a nice thought.

It's building on the trope that Trek is full of incurable fictional diseases (to replace the real life diseases that the advanced Federation supposedly cured) like irumodic syndrome, Medusan exposure syndrome, etc. Although we're told that Picard's mother "refused treatment", it's clear there's no cure for that either if it needs a continuous treatment and not a one shot dose. Jurati's Borg are somehow going to find people who are terminally ill or have permanent incurable diseases and cure them by assimilating them.

How this is going to work practically I admit was glossed over. I doubt the local hospitals in the galaxy are going to just allow the "friendly neighborhood Borg" to assimilate the patients in their terminally ill/chronic illness wards. Maybe Jurati can assimilate the Diviner over at Prodigy.

Spoiler: Prodigy

Last I checked the so called heroes over at that show left him in some slave mines to rot after brain damaging him in combat.