At least Spock waited until Star Trek III to return. JL could have waited until Season 2 at least.
Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 1x10 - "Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
At least Picard being reborn inside the golem was far more satisfying than the almost laughably bad death and resurrection of Kelvin Timeline Kirk using Augment blood inside a tribble. That happened within almost as short a time frame and was infinitely more shameless and even uncreative.
No, thank you. Just when Picard was actually getting kind of interesting they kill him off. Whelp, I'm done if that's the attitude.
One I find infinitely more believable than Picard or Spock.
I thought Spock's resurrection was the most sci-fi method (Genesis was cool, and I want it). And Picard's was the most timely. Nu-Kirk's was just silly.
Nu-Kirk used a concept that is actually employed by modern medicine, just taken to an extreme with augmented blood.
Spock's involved a soul transfer. Picard's is better only because it involves a computer.
All three of these things are kind of silly. Only one makes sense from a soft science point of view.
Spock's involved a soul transfer. Picard's is better only because it involves a computer.
All three of these things are kind of silly. Only one makes sense from a soft science point of view.
We're forgetting the fourth method of Trek resurrection, "write a book where a beloved character doesn't actually die, but becomes a spy or something instead for no apparent reason."
Shatner did alright.
No, he described himself as the family shame, the Zhat Vash washout - basically, he's always been the loser of the family, so he was rubbing it in that he'd finally succeeded where everyone else had failed.
Does seem to confirm that the Zhat Vash aren't all women as matter of course, at least. Guess that was just Narissa's graduating class.
Slept on it. So. One of my friends from my streaming group. She's relatively new to Trek - we've done "Best Of" watches of TOS and TNG (plus a double-handful gems that tend to get left off lists) and all of DS9 so far over the past few months.
Her reaction at the end of it was, "I wish there had been another five episodes so I could feel what the writers wanted me to feel."
Which, yeah. That's probably my biggest issue. I said before that this felt like a series finale. Going back over the season, it feels more like the finale of series that found out midway through that it wasn't being renewed.
There was SO MUCH going on in S1. Easily two seasons worth of good material and interesting ideas with no room to breathe. The best cast of any S1 Trek (and I'm including my beloved DS9 in that) with no room to develop.
I think Picard's emotional journey through to closure with Data's death was almost perfect. Data wasn't just a crew member Picard lost under his command, he was a friend, protege, and a unique life of untapped potential sacrificed for Picard without even a good-bye. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say Picard was haunted by Data's sacrifice in ways similar to how a parent would be haunted by the death of a child. And so I adored that Picard got to have both the plot closure of saving Data's metaphorical children, to ensure that something of his potential lived on, and the more concrete closure of a face-to-face goodbye.
And the writers were so determined to wring every drop of sentimental nostalgia out of this thing that I couldn't appreciate it.
There were too many attempts to land emotional moments that the show just hadn't earned; same blessed issue as last episode. Kudos to the actors for giving it their all, but the only reaction that I believed was Elnor's and mostly because we'd already seen the poor guy have a hell of a week - I could believe he had a lot to cry out. Otherwise, I needed to see Picard spend more time in the present building bonds with this crew, not just have history with some of them, to feel those tears.
But then Picard's only sort of dead - turns out he got a convenient, non-consensual 'port over to an adroid body. And from where the finale left off, there's no indication of consequences. He's not going to have to adapt to life in an unfamiliar body or bid a final good-bye to the life he knew while being on the run as a synth fugitive. I've read Chabon's thoughts on the matter, how making Picard into a synth is essentially putting his money where his mouth is about synthetic life being equal to organic life, but there's no agency there on Picard's part. So it's a potentially interesting idea that doesn't add up to a satisfying payoff, just a feeling of being jerked around.
And then there was Data's death. I can't begrudge Chabon his fix-it 'fic when I'm wrist-deep in my own, but I saw Nemesis in theatres. Data's been "dead" for about a third of my life. I've cried my tears. (Literally. He was my fave of the TNG crew.) Getting to watch it as a do-over didn't touch me, didn't feel like a coda. Again, it felt manipulative and there was no need for it.
But anyway, that's the big stuff. For the smaller bits:
- I loved Picard taking La Sirena up. That was just fun in general, and I got a grin out the technobabble moment.
- Ditto Rios and Raffi. Those two have a really fabulous rapport with each other every time they get a scene together. I absolutely adore them.
- I've enjoyed this incarnation of Seven, but I wish she hadn't been the one to punt Narissa into oblivion. That really should have been Elnor's moment. He was the one most traumatized by Hugh's death, and he was the who fell for Narissa's taunts in their one-on-one fight. Plus, he's had so little purpose this season. The character needed that rematch on multiple levels.
- The conversation between Elnor and Seven about the xBs remains my "what the hell?" moment for this ep.
- The choice to have Narek screaming at Soji to not activate the beacon is my runner-up, though. Why would she ever listen to him about anything ever again? Pretty sure Soji would have summoned the shoggoths and doomed all organic life just to make sure his scumbag emo ass died.
- The xB/Artifact stuff. Well, that went nowhere fast, didn't it?
- Goddamn. Johnathan Frakes still has charisma for miles, doesn't he?
- Seven and Raffi. Can't be peeved at it surfacing in literally the last seconds of the season because I really like these characters. Elnor can have two mommies, absolutely. Also, "Saffi" is a hella cute 'ship name. Can't get excited, however, because my faith in Chabon to do a from-scratch romance rides very, very low.
- There were too many characters and not enough screentime to go around this season, but we're still keeping Soji and adding Seven to the crew. So I fear we're going to see some of the same issues in S2 we did in S1.
So yeah. Feeling let down overall. This should have been better. This wasn't a case of a poorly-conceived season limping to the finish line. We had a generally strong season and all the ingredients to deliver a really bang-up conclusion, for the finale to maintain the quality of it's highest points all the way through. And it just didn't deliver.
Her reaction at the end of it was, "I wish there had been another five episodes so I could feel what the writers wanted me to feel."
Which, yeah. That's probably my biggest issue. I said before that this felt like a series finale. Going back over the season, it feels more like the finale of series that found out midway through that it wasn't being renewed.
There was SO MUCH going on in S1. Easily two seasons worth of good material and interesting ideas with no room to breathe. The best cast of any S1 Trek (and I'm including my beloved DS9 in that) with no room to develop.
I think Picard's emotional journey through to closure with Data's death was almost perfect. Data wasn't just a crew member Picard lost under his command, he was a friend, protege, and a unique life of untapped potential sacrificed for Picard without even a good-bye. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say Picard was haunted by Data's sacrifice in ways similar to how a parent would be haunted by the death of a child. And so I adored that Picard got to have both the plot closure of saving Data's metaphorical children, to ensure that something of his potential lived on, and the more concrete closure of a face-to-face goodbye.
And the writers were so determined to wring every drop of sentimental nostalgia out of this thing that I couldn't appreciate it.
There were too many attempts to land emotional moments that the show just hadn't earned; same blessed issue as last episode. Kudos to the actors for giving it their all, but the only reaction that I believed was Elnor's and mostly because we'd already seen the poor guy have a hell of a week - I could believe he had a lot to cry out. Otherwise, I needed to see Picard spend more time in the present building bonds with this crew, not just have history with some of them, to feel those tears.
But then Picard's only sort of dead - turns out he got a convenient, non-consensual 'port over to an adroid body. And from where the finale left off, there's no indication of consequences. He's not going to have to adapt to life in an unfamiliar body or bid a final good-bye to the life he knew while being on the run as a synth fugitive. I've read Chabon's thoughts on the matter, how making Picard into a synth is essentially putting his money where his mouth is about synthetic life being equal to organic life, but there's no agency there on Picard's part. So it's a potentially interesting idea that doesn't add up to a satisfying payoff, just a feeling of being jerked around.
And then there was Data's death. I can't begrudge Chabon his fix-it 'fic when I'm wrist-deep in my own, but I saw Nemesis in theatres. Data's been "dead" for about a third of my life. I've cried my tears. (Literally. He was my fave of the TNG crew.) Getting to watch it as a do-over didn't touch me, didn't feel like a coda. Again, it felt manipulative and there was no need for it.
But anyway, that's the big stuff. For the smaller bits:
- I loved Picard taking La Sirena up. That was just fun in general, and I got a grin out the technobabble moment.
- Ditto Rios and Raffi. Those two have a really fabulous rapport with each other every time they get a scene together. I absolutely adore them.
- I've enjoyed this incarnation of Seven, but I wish she hadn't been the one to punt Narissa into oblivion. That really should have been Elnor's moment. He was the one most traumatized by Hugh's death, and he was the who fell for Narissa's taunts in their one-on-one fight. Plus, he's had so little purpose this season. The character needed that rematch on multiple levels.
- The conversation between Elnor and Seven about the xBs remains my "what the hell?" moment for this ep.
- The choice to have Narek screaming at Soji to not activate the beacon is my runner-up, though. Why would she ever listen to him about anything ever again? Pretty sure Soji would have summoned the shoggoths and doomed all organic life just to make sure his scumbag emo ass died.
- The xB/Artifact stuff. Well, that went nowhere fast, didn't it?
- Goddamn. Johnathan Frakes still has charisma for miles, doesn't he?
- Seven and Raffi. Can't be peeved at it surfacing in literally the last seconds of the season because I really like these characters. Elnor can have two mommies, absolutely. Also, "Saffi" is a hella cute 'ship name. Can't get excited, however, because my faith in Chabon to do a from-scratch romance rides very, very low.
- There were too many characters and not enough screentime to go around this season, but we're still keeping Soji and adding Seven to the crew. So I fear we're going to see some of the same issues in S2 we did in S1.
So yeah. Feeling let down overall. This should have been better. This wasn't a case of a poorly-conceived season limping to the finish line. We had a generally strong season and all the ingredients to deliver a really bang-up conclusion, for the finale to maintain the quality of it's highest points all the way through. And it just didn't deliver.
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I appreciated that too. Picard is at his core a diplomat, and I love that they put that aspect of him front and centre. We need to learn the lesson of solving things with words, not war.
Agreed, it was a beautiful ending to the season. Some people complain about Jurati getting away with killing Maddox. No she won't, she's already agreed to being taken to the authorities after they finish this detour. But in the meantime she has redeemed herself in her own eyes, and with her companions.
If there was one thing I'd like to change, I'd prefer both Romulans and Starfleet having no more than three ships with identity, mass and gravitas, not hundreds of tiny specks on screen that are individually meaningless.
G
Gonzo
Guest
Yeah I am aware of it but I never read up on it at all.
Curious that they should drop it into the episode like that.
Perhaps indicating a possible story line for next season.
It felt too neat, and some parts felt cheap. Like, how is there a task force of the same ship type that close to this previously "unknown" planet? How does Riker rate to suddenly jump on the flagship and grab said task force? I think it was great to see him in the chair, but it would've been nice to even see other Federation with him, like Geordi or some random captains or even the Admiral that swears like a Church Tween. If it wasn't for the Synth sonic screwdriver thingy being involved, I would have thought that Riker did the exact same 'I can't believe it's not' Picard maneuver.
How is it that a Romulan secret order with the frenzied Vision fueled furor that led them to allow billions of their own people to die just to kill Starfleet's synth production, and the sight of which drove Kim Pine to kill her lost lover and mentor, just turned around and left? I mean, they're around a planet with a convenient pile of synths standing around the button to summon Metal Cthulu, and they don't even try to fight?
TBH, it all left me like Nemesis did, Data's dead for some arbitrary reason, a lot of stuff made no sense, but the stuff with the Rikers was nice.
How is it that a Romulan secret order with the frenzied Vision fueled furor that led them to allow billions of their own people to die just to kill Starfleet's synth production, and the sight of which drove Kim Pine to kill her lost lover and mentor, just turned around and left? I mean, they're around a planet with a convenient pile of synths standing around the button to summon Metal Cthulu, and they don't even try to fight?
TBH, it all left me like Nemesis did, Data's dead for some arbitrary reason, a lot of stuff made no sense, but the stuff with the Rikers was nice.
Sorry if this has already been posted but Chabon gives some insights into the finale on reddit here:
I wish they had included some of this into the actual finale.
What became of Narek?
Yeah. Narek. We know, we know. A casualty of the editorial process, alas. The intention was for him to be taken into Federation custody.
What about the xBs?
We shot a scene intended to show Ramdha and other xBs beginning to form a kind of community with the Synths under the auspices of Soong. In the end we couldn't find a place for it that worked and we felt that losing it didn't hurt too much. Maybe we were wrong!
Which came first, the Admonition or the Sisters prophecy Narek spoke of?
The Admonition predates Romulan civilization by hundreds of centuries. If Romulans had not chanced upon it, their history would be very different. Their pre-existing mythology of Gamadan just gave them a framework for interpreting their experience of the Admonition.
Are they really sentient if Deanna can't sense them like she did Lore, Lala, and Data (when she felt)?
The emotion chip and the creation of Soong androids encountered by Troi represent an earlier approach to android emotional engineering. I think Troi or any Betazoid could be trained to read the emotions of the current generation. (OP: Also, recall that there are species that Betazoids can't read, including Ferengi.)
Will Jurati face legal punishment?
She will put herself in the hands of the law.
Will Soong build himself another Golem?
Probably
Are the Starfleet ships' designs influenced by Star Trek Online?
I don't know the answer to that.
What was the class of Riker's ship? And was that filmed in Toronto?
It's a Curiosity*-class ship* (OP: I was right!)And yes, shot in Toronto where Frakes was busy directing DISCO.
Was there ever discussion of having Q speak to Picard, a la Tapestry?
No, never.
Why was Data kept like that when he could've been put into a Golem?
If he could've been put in a golem, he would've been. Soong's golem was not operational and, as he says, he had abandoned work on it until the seeming imminence of his own death renewed his interest in it. What's more, that was a highly sophisticated reconstruction/simulation of Data's consciousness, as Data explains, and not a fully accurate, literal transcription thereof.
Why does Starfleet have so many of the same ship? Do they have any others?
It would be odd and unprecedented if they didn't!
Was the set of DSCs bridge used for Riker's ship?
There was far more cleverness, skill, and wizardry involved, both practical and digital, than your question implies. (OP: While the chair and bridge stations seen behind Riker are clearly from Discovery, the over-the-shoulder shots facing the viewscreen show other stations and details.)
How was Narissa still on the cube? Didn't she warp out?
She beamed, not "warped," and "away," not "out."
Are the evolved AI beings the same who altered a probe in Discovery?
If so, it's news to me. (OP: In Discovery, the probe was altered in the far future by sentient AI Control. In Picard, the evolved synthetic life came from the distant past.)
Did Rios keep the deus ex tool?
It is an important point of honor for Rios that he return what was borrowed.
I wish more had been done for JL advocating for the xBs. Cut/seed for s2?
It would be a good thing, for them and for him.
What did they do with Picard's corpse?
I wondered the same thing!
Can we hope for the (Seven-Raffi) relationship to be explored in season 2?
I hope I don't get in trouble for saying, yes.
How much did you have TOS androids in mind?
Well, I remember Kirsten Beyer and me cracking each other up with discussions about the android duplicator in "What Are Little Girls Made Of?"
What was one concept from your original pitch to Patrick that you wish stayed in?
Picard as the road/stage manager of an itinerant interplanetary theater company, alone in an empty theater, acting out a scene from Krapp's Last Tape just before the planet he was on got assimilated. Not sure I wish it were still there, but it's fun to think about.
Why didn't Oh kamikaze the synths?
I'd like to think she was listening to Picard and Soji, but maybe that's just because I believe in Star Trek. Perhaps she thought it would be more effective to live and fight another day.
How much time between Picard's resurrection and the final scene?
Long enough for loose ends to be tied up, the xBs seen to and their safety arranged, Seven and Raffi to hook up, Jurati to hire a lawyer ...
Would the advanced synths be concerned that the beacon stopped so abruptly?
Who even knows, after 200,000 years, if they're still "advanced." Maybe they've devolved.
Will S2 go deeper into the Romulan rescue?
In a way.
Section 31 ... how much do they know about the Zhat Vash and do they care?
Section 31 has always kinda seemed like they have their heads too far up their own asses, to me.
If you could bring two Deep Space Nine characters aboard La Sirena, which ones and why?
I'd love to check in on Garak and Bashir. They're always so much fun to hang out with.
In-universe explanation as to why Starfleet's armada looks the same?
They actually don't. Because they aren't. ... I am working to confirm, but I believe there are actually four distinct classes.
Was Oh indeed half-Vulcan, half-Romulan?
Yes. Her parent's were re-unificationists. Or so her Romulan mother wanted it to be believed.
https://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/c...urce=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Yeah. Narek. We know, we know. A casualty of the editorial process, alas. The intention was for him to be taken into Federation custody.
What about the xBs?
We shot a scene intended to show Ramdha and other xBs beginning to form a kind of community with the Synths under the auspices of Soong. In the end we couldn't find a place for it that worked and we felt that losing it didn't hurt too much. Maybe we were wrong!
Which came first, the Admonition or the Sisters prophecy Narek spoke of?
The Admonition predates Romulan civilization by hundreds of centuries. If Romulans had not chanced upon it, their history would be very different. Their pre-existing mythology of Gamadan just gave them a framework for interpreting their experience of the Admonition.
Are they really sentient if Deanna can't sense them like she did Lore, Lala, and Data (when she felt)?
The emotion chip and the creation of Soong androids encountered by Troi represent an earlier approach to android emotional engineering. I think Troi or any Betazoid could be trained to read the emotions of the current generation. (OP: Also, recall that there are species that Betazoids can't read, including Ferengi.)
Will Jurati face legal punishment?
She will put herself in the hands of the law.
Will Soong build himself another Golem?
Probably
Are the Starfleet ships' designs influenced by Star Trek Online?
I don't know the answer to that.
What was the class of Riker's ship? And was that filmed in Toronto?
It's a Curiosity*-class ship* (OP: I was right!)And yes, shot in Toronto where Frakes was busy directing DISCO.
Was there ever discussion of having Q speak to Picard, a la Tapestry?
No, never.
Why was Data kept like that when he could've been put into a Golem?
If he could've been put in a golem, he would've been. Soong's golem was not operational and, as he says, he had abandoned work on it until the seeming imminence of his own death renewed his interest in it. What's more, that was a highly sophisticated reconstruction/simulation of Data's consciousness, as Data explains, and not a fully accurate, literal transcription thereof.
Why does Starfleet have so many of the same ship? Do they have any others?
It would be odd and unprecedented if they didn't!
Was the set of DSCs bridge used for Riker's ship?
There was far more cleverness, skill, and wizardry involved, both practical and digital, than your question implies. (OP: While the chair and bridge stations seen behind Riker are clearly from Discovery, the over-the-shoulder shots facing the viewscreen show other stations and details.)
How was Narissa still on the cube? Didn't she warp out?
She beamed, not "warped," and "away," not "out."
Are the evolved AI beings the same who altered a probe in Discovery?
If so, it's news to me. (OP: In Discovery, the probe was altered in the far future by sentient AI Control. In Picard, the evolved synthetic life came from the distant past.)
Did Rios keep the deus ex tool?
It is an important point of honor for Rios that he return what was borrowed.
I wish more had been done for JL advocating for the xBs. Cut/seed for s2?
It would be a good thing, for them and for him.
What did they do with Picard's corpse?
I wondered the same thing!
Can we hope for the (Seven-Raffi) relationship to be explored in season 2?
I hope I don't get in trouble for saying, yes.
How much did you have TOS androids in mind?
Well, I remember Kirsten Beyer and me cracking each other up with discussions about the android duplicator in "What Are Little Girls Made Of?"
What was one concept from your original pitch to Patrick that you wish stayed in?
Picard as the road/stage manager of an itinerant interplanetary theater company, alone in an empty theater, acting out a scene from Krapp's Last Tape just before the planet he was on got assimilated. Not sure I wish it were still there, but it's fun to think about.
Why didn't Oh kamikaze the synths?
I'd like to think she was listening to Picard and Soji, but maybe that's just because I believe in Star Trek. Perhaps she thought it would be more effective to live and fight another day.
How much time between Picard's resurrection and the final scene?
Long enough for loose ends to be tied up, the xBs seen to and their safety arranged, Seven and Raffi to hook up, Jurati to hire a lawyer ...
Would the advanced synths be concerned that the beacon stopped so abruptly?
Who even knows, after 200,000 years, if they're still "advanced." Maybe they've devolved.
Will S2 go deeper into the Romulan rescue?
In a way.
Section 31 ... how much do they know about the Zhat Vash and do they care?
Section 31 has always kinda seemed like they have their heads too far up their own asses, to me.
If you could bring two Deep Space Nine characters aboard La Sirena, which ones and why?
I'd love to check in on Garak and Bashir. They're always so much fun to hang out with.
In-universe explanation as to why Starfleet's armada looks the same?
They actually don't. Because they aren't. ... I am working to confirm, but I believe there are actually four distinct classes.
Was Oh indeed half-Vulcan, half-Romulan?
Yes. Her parent's were re-unificationists. Or so her Romulan mother wanted it to be believed.
https://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/c...urce=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
I wish they had included some of this into the actual finale.
Well, those loose threads he talked about could easily be a few SHORT TREKS episodes.
I gave it a solid 9. I thought the space battle with those orchid things was movie-standard excellent and a refreshing change from a load of starships (which we got as well), loved rikers return - he scrubbed up a lot better than when we saw him earlier in the series and had some great lines. I guess him showing up in the enterprise in some variation would have been a bit too cute (and aped discovery's season end too much) so kudos to them showing restraint here, though I'd still like it to show up at some point.
But the ending with data. My word, most emotional scene since TWOK for me, hands down (maybe even better). The way it tied up the loose ends from nemesis was just great too see, and somehow completes that film now in a very satisfying way, which is something I never thought I'd see given how badly that film bombed. The love and affection between the characters in the sequence was just heartbreaking and emotionally uplifting at the same time, it was just lovely to see it all come full circle and end how it should have done in 2002. Fabulous scene.
I should have given it a 10 really.
But the ending with data. My word, most emotional scene since TWOK for me, hands down (maybe even better). The way it tied up the loose ends from nemesis was just great too see, and somehow completes that film now in a very satisfying way, which is something I never thought I'd see given how badly that film bombed. The love and affection between the characters in the sequence was just heartbreaking and emotionally uplifting at the same time, it was just lovely to see it all come full circle and end how it should have done in 2002. Fabulous scene.
I should have given it a 10 really.
Sounds like lots of stuff was left on the cutting room floor.
Don't forget the Voyager method, as used for Harry Kim. Get blown out into space, then replaced by your quantum double. Or the TNG variant for Tasha Yar, replaced by your live double from an alternate timeline. And the classic temporal reset button used who knows how many times from 1987 on.
If again we take the hints that consciousness transfer is quantum teleportation process, the original is just matter + quantum states, the quantum states are all transferred to different matter ( the simulation) where they interact with Data and evolve, these updated quantum states are then transferred to the new matter (golem). As I mentioned above the process would likely have some approximation errors, but if they were small, Picard's collection of quantum states would evolve and for all purposes experience each step of the process. The "original" is transferred with some errors and some new experiences. The errors are equivalent to experiences.
The transporter could be considered to be the same, though even more magical and impossible in real life. Tom Riker, while good fiction, makes the whole transporter thing even more out of whack with physics. If we take that to be immutable cannon, then transporters are inconsistent with the Picard transfer. Quantum information cannot be cloned only transferred. But transporter information can be. Transporters thus, must reconstruct all the matter with a default quantum state and that state evolves as soon as the person rematerializes. Transporters kill and recreate. Picard's transfer into his new body, transferred his consciousness, with error, to a new body with more error but in a continuous manner. Both transporters and mind transfers are a proper mindfucking.
The best option is to just call it all magic.
Apparently there was the scene, but how do we know he is out for good? His arc may not be over. He may also get a bonus scene or something. I suspect this sort of thing happens to actors all the time and while it sucks, they are used to it.
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