Star Trek: Picard Androids

[The WW Wizard]

I know I'm knew to this forum, but I'm not new to Star Trek. I thought of an interesting topic relating to the Picard show. In TNG, in the episode The Measure of a Man, Picard helps to establish laws and rights for androids like Data and establishes that they are considered a life form. However, in Star Trek: Picard, to me, it seems, to me at least, that the androids, while less sophisticated, are treated more like normal machines without life. As seen later, these were based off of the far less sophisticated B-4, but does that necessarily mean that these androids aren't alive? If you encounter a person that is extremely stupid, it doesn't mean that they are any less human than others, or deserve any less rights. I feel that this was especially prominent when the show talked about the ban on androids. To ban androids after previously establishing them as a life form could be considered a racism and xenophobic action made out of fear. Even though Romulans were the very enemy of the Federation, they weren't ever banned from coming into the Federation, say if they wanted to defect like what happened in TNG: The Defector. And for androids, building other androids is basically their way of reproducing, like in TNG: The Offspring.

My point of this paragraph is the idea of whether or not far less sophisticated androids like B-4 and those in Picard should be considered just as much alive and allowed all rights as Data, of course ignoring for a second the human-like androids at the end of season 1. As you can probably have guessed, I would say yes. Thoughts?

 

[Tuskin38]

These androids were not sentient like Data or B4.

 

[NCC-73515]

It is explained with more detail in the first PIC novel. IIRC, Maddox made sure to not make them too complex, not sentient, just mechanical.
Banning ALL synths was of course an overreaction, probably to mirror such overreactions in real life.

 

[F. King Daniel]

These androids were not sentient like Data or B4.

This is in the novel, but not the show itself. My impression was that following Data's demise, B4 was taken to pieces by Maddox and Starfleet made a sentient android army. Like their army of EMH miners.

Part of Starfleet losing it's way, as was the theme of season one.

 

[The WW Wizard]

Part of Starfleet losing it's way, as was the theme of season one.

In all honesty, I thought Starfleet began to lose its way long before the Picard show came out. Think of how many episodes of TNG were revolved around Starfleet making a decision that seemed so morally wrong and the whole of the episode being partly revolved around Picard convincing them of that. And look at Star Trek: Insurection. If it wasn't for Picard again, the Federation would have moved those people without a second thought.

 

[Tuskin38]

Also don't forget, they were using EMH Mk1's as slave labour according to Voyager.

This is in the novel, but not the show itself.

Idk they way the act they feel 'dumber' than both Data and B4

 

[Nerys Myk]

Idk they way the act they feel 'dumber' than both Data and B4

Yes, it's clearly shown they are much more limited than Data.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Yes, it's clearly shown they are much more limited than Data.

Or have they just lived shitty lives, where they're openly mocked and called "plastic people" every day? Compared to Data who was able to explore his hobbies and make friends and generally have a good privileged life, and changed a great deal from TNG S1 through to S7, the movies and Picard.

The synth ban makes a lot more sense, and Picard S1 as a whole, if Starfleet had accepted that the synths rose up as a result of their treatment. Otherwise it's obvious to everyone that an outside agency was involved.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Or have they just lived shitty lives, where they're openly mocked and called "plastic people" every day? Compared to Data who was able to explore his hobbies and make friends and generally have a good privileged life, and changed a great deal from TNG S1 through to S7, the movies and Picard.

The synth ban makes a lot more sense, and Picard S1 as a whole, if Starfleet had accepted that the synths rose up as a result of their treatment. Otherwise it's obvious to everyone that an outside agency was involved.

What we see on screen doesn’t real support that.

 

[F. King Daniel]

What we see on screen doesn’t real support that.

It doesn't detail it at all, and that's the conclusion I reached having absorbed all of Trek before it.

That the synths were called "F8" and seeing B4 disassembled says to me he got to do to B4 what he couldn't with Data and worked from there. And B4 was special, but he was also sentient. Thus I assume F8 was the same.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It doesn't detail it at all, and that's the conclusion I reached having absorbed all of Trek before it.

That the synths were called "F8" and seeing B4 disassembled says to me he got to do to B4 what he couldn't with Data and worked from there. And B4 was special, but he was also sentient. Thus I assume F8 was the same.

The A500s seemed very limited in programming and more robotic than B4. F8 was the designation for a single A500. I doubt it was related to B4.

 

[Tuskin38]

The A500s seemed very limited in programming and more robotic than B4. F8 was the designation for a single A500. I doubt it was related to B4.

Yeah, we see at least F5 and F7

 

[FredH]

Or have they just lived shitty lives, where they're openly mocked and called "plastic people" every day? Compared to Data who was able to explore his hobbies and make friends and generally have a good privileged life, and changed a great deal from TNG S1 through to S7, the movies and Picard.

The synth ban makes a lot more sense, and Picard S1 as a whole, if Starfleet had accepted that the synths rose up as a result of their treatment. Otherwise it's obvious to everyone that an outside agency was involved.

Based on what we saw, I would assume that Starfleet understandably believed the synths rose up because of their treatment — which Starfleet then pretended not to know — but in fact the synths did nothing of the kind, having been hacked to do it by the Romulans.

I’m pretty sure we’re to take them as not being actually sentient — in the little we see, F8(?) follows orders but shows no initiative or personality whatsoever, and it wouldn’t have been hard for the actor to show him as obedient and cold yet quietly no-I-totally-don’t-have-emotions seething. There was none of that.

But it would certainly have been valid for the show to take that approach and have them clearly sentient but oppressed, like the surplus EMHs. (And how come holograms weren’t banned, anyway?)

 

[Dukhat]

Based on what we saw, I would assume that Starfleet understandably believed the synths rose up because of their treatment — which Starfleet then pretended not to know — but in fact the synths did nothing of the kind, having been hacked to do it by the Romulans.

I’m pretty sure we’re to take them as not being actually sentient — in the little we see, F8(?) follows orders but shows no initiative or personality whatsoever, and it wouldn’t have been hard for the actor to show him as obedient and cold yet quietly no-I-totally-don’t-have-emotions seething. There was none of that.

But it would certainly have been valid for the show to take that approach and have them clearly sentient but oppressed, like the surplus EMHs. (And how come holograms weren’t banned, anyway?)

That's it in a nutshell. The pre-show teasers for PIC heavily implied that the synths went rogue of their own accord, presumably because they were sentient like Data and the Doctor, and didn't like their slave labor status. Of course that was totally taken out of context, as we saw that the androids were nothing more than dumb machines that were reprogrammed by the Zhat Vash. That, in my opinion, was one of the worst mistakes the show made. It would have been far more meaningful had the androids been sentient and rebelled of their own free will, because banning dumb machines made no sense. And they didn't ban holograms, which they were most definitely using as slave labor per VOY's "Author, Author."

 

[FredH]

That's it in a nutshell. The pre-show teasers for PIC heavily implied that the synths went rogue of their own accord, presumably because they were sentient like Data and the Doctor, and didn't like their slave labor status. Of course that was totally taken out of context, as we saw that the androids were nothing more than dumb machines that were reprogrammed by the Zhat Vash. That, in my opinion, was one of the worst mistakes the show made. It would have been far more meaningful had the androids been sentient and rebelled of their own free will, because banning dumb machines made no sense. And they didn't ban holograms, which they were most definitely using as slave labor per VOY's "Author, Author."

On the one hand, all of that is absolutely true. On the other, we’ve seen that story a lot in recent years, just in other franchises; and I could see how it might weaken the moral case for the androids at the end, if there really was a chance they might choose to up and kill off a planet, whatever their reasons.

If I were going to guess/make up a rationalization for why holograms weren’t banned, it would be that (a) their minds aren’t positronic, and (b) most of them aren’t sentient — they become so through experience, if they’re allowed to run continually long enough, which they generally wouldn’t be.

But that then begs the question of why they were using discarded EMHs for slave labor at all instead of just, you know, leaving them off and recycling the emitters? It’s unlikely that the Federation actually needs bodies in caves.

 

[fireproof78]

If we’re going to guess/make up a rationalization for why holograms weren’t banned, it would be that (a) their minds aren’t positronic, and (b) most of them aren’t sentient — they become so through experience, if they’re allowed to run continually long enough, which they generally wouldn’t be.

I would imagine holograms are preferred for two reasons: one, they require less intensive hardware and support, like a rack to shut down and be stored in. And, two, they are usually run by one central computer and can be shut off with a verbal command.

We've seen far more examples of androids going rogue.

 

[FredH]

I would imagine holograms are preferred for two reasons: one, they require less intensive hardware and support, like a rack to shut down and be stored in. And, two, they are usually run by one central computer and can be shut off with a verbal command.

We've seen far more examples of androids going rogue.

True, holograms usually have an infrastructure “leash”.

Also you can shut ‘em down by blinking your eyes in the right pattern.