Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 1x04 - "Absolute Candor"

[Spot261]

I dont even know what that means.

It is a running gag generated over the past few pages of this very thread. A conversation we have all been taking part in, btw, so you aren't being excluded.

No there aren't and the actual definition of Mary-Sue doesn't support your claims.

https://www.dictionary.com/e/fictional-characters/mary-sue/

Mary-Sue's apart from being an avatar of the writer also have zero flaws. Picard has flaws. Picard left starfleet in protest and then went and hid in his chateau and spent 14 years ignoring the people he had promised to save. That was a pretty hypocritical move on Picard's part, how dare he criticise Starfleet, when he did absolutely fuck all.

Remember when "Mary Sue wasn't derogatory? When it was an in joke between trekkies who read fan fiction and was used affectionately?

Oh, for context:

https://www.studiobinder.com/blog/what-does-an-executive-producer-do/

An executive producer (EP) is the head producer who supervises other producers in the creation of a film, television show, web series, commercial, or theater performance. They may work independently or on behalf of the studio, financiers or the distributors.

They will ensure the film is completed on time, within budget, and to agreed artistic and technical standards.

In television, an Executive Producer may also be the Creator / Writer of the series.

Bottom line: An executive producer is usually a financier of the project. Typically, this person may assemble the core team, but will not physically produce the project.

 

[oberth]

Am I missing something? The entire point of the show is that he did not continue it! The moment Starfleet pulled the rug out of him, he literally gave up and retired to Burgundy for fourteen years. He could've called in the hundreds of favors he'd collected during his captaincy, but he did nothing. He was a personal friend to Sarek and Spock and never asked the Vulcans for help. He was the Arbiter of Succession to the Klingon Empire, and the former Federation ambassador to Qo'noS was his former subordinate, but he never went to the Klingons for help. He could've asked the merchant fleets for assistance, but he didn't do any of that. Even if he couldn't muster any help, he could've at least gone back to Vashti and help the refugees there including Elnor who looked up to him as a father figure, but he instead chose to cut himself off from the entire galaxy and went to sulk in his family home for fourteen years.

And it was never a clear-cut situation with Saint Mary-Sue Picard being the only person in the whole galaxy with a moral compass against everyone else. The show made it clear that while a large part of Starfleet brass opposed a rescue effort, it was far from everyone. And with a political situation where fourteen members of the Federation, which probably doesn't mean only fourteen backwater planets, basically threaten Brexit if Starfleet as much as lifts a finger to help a single Romulan, who are the oldest enemies of most of the Federation (to the point that it literally started as an anti-Romulan military alliance 200 years ago), it's no wonder that it took charismatic people like Picard to even start organizing an evacuation and also that it collapsed as soon as Utopia Planitia, the largest Shipyard of Starfleet was bombed. Not to mention it was only ten years after a Quadrant-wide war where a huge part of Starfleet was wiped out and even Earth was bombed once. It's no wonder Starfleet wasn't keen on rebuilding the rescue fleet after the first one already strained their resources. But Picard still could've and should've looked for alternatives outside Starfleet. He didn't, and that's what he feels he needs to atone for.

exactly

 

[Tarek71]

No there aren't and the actual definition of Mary-Sue doesn't support your claims.

https://www.dictionary.com/e/fictional-characters/mary-sue/

Mary-Sue's apart from being an avatar of the writer also have zero flaws. Picard has flaws. Picard left starfleet in protest and then went and hid in his chateau and spent 14 years ignoring the people he had promised to save. That was a pretty hypocritical move on Picard's part, how dare he criticise Starfleet, when he did absolutely fuck all.

Yes there are a number of definitions of it. That remains true. It does not mean NO flaws, and I said Moral Mary Sue to say that he is an ethical Mary Sue.

No he did not leave Starfleet in protest. He said he would resign if they cancelled the rescue effort. He staked his career on it. And they still said no. He already saved everyone we have seen so far. You mean he didnt go back to rescue even MORE Romulans? He had no fleet and no ships. That is not his fault. That is their fault.

 

[Spot261]

Yes there are a number of definitions of it. That remains true. It does not mean NO flaws, and I said Moral Mary Sue to say that he is an ethical Mary Sue.

No he did not leave Starfleet in protest. He said he would resign if they cancelled the rescue effort. He staked his career on it. And they still said no. He already saved everyone we have seen so far. You mean he didnt go back to rescue even MORE Romulans? He had no fleet and no ships. That is not his fault. That is their fault.

So you invented a phrase?

 

[Photoman15]

I wish Kurtzman would "Stop It". But apparently he won't. Tell him to stop Mary Sue-ing and I will agree to stop accurately pointing it out.

My guess is that it was a contractual decision that lead to Jeri's name in the opening credits. She or more likely her agent may have negotiated for main cast billing as opposed for guest star billing

You do know what an actual Mary-Sue is, right? Because I don't think you're using the term accurately at all.

You CAN'T BE A MARY-SUE when the show is about you ( in this case Picard), moral or otherwise. If the main character can do or feel certain ways, that's the basis of the show. A Mary Sue comes in from the outside and can "fix everyone's problems"

 

[oberth]

So you invented a phrase?

that's one way to put it

 

[Tarek71]

You CAN'T BE A MARY-SUE when the show is about you ( in this case Picard), moral or otherwise. If the main character can do or feel certain ways, that's the basis of the show. A Mary Sue comes in from the outside and can "fix everyone's problems"

Yes you can. There are many disputed meanings going back decades. A Mary Sue does NOT have to come "from the outside".

 

[Photoman15]

It has many uses and many definitions. I am using it very consistently and with a definition that I have made clear.

MARY SUE
noun
noun: Mary Sue; plural noun: Mary Sues

1. (originally in fan fiction) a type of female character who is depicted as unrealistically lacking in flaws or weaknesses.
   "she was not a ‘strong woman’ so much as an insufferable Mary Sue"

Mary Sue is a term used to describe a fictional character, usually female, who is seen as too perfect and almost boring for lack of flaws, originally written as an idealized version of an author in fanfiction.

That is THE definition of a Mary Sue. What you think is a Mary Sue is NOT. But your continued defense of your error brings to bear that ANY of your opinions are based on faulty information and therefore irrelevant. (based on a witnesses testimony, if one thing they say is false (or a lie), the jury can disregard anything they say as fact), (I am not saying anyone is lying, just presenting the logic behind not taking anything you say as objective).

 

[oberth]

Yes you can. There are many disputed meanings going back decades. A Mary Sue does NOT have to come "from the outside".

hmm?

 

[DEWLine]

Well, the Qowat Milat is said to only take up hopeless causes, and what would be more of a hopeless cause than being open and honest in the heart of the Romulan Empire?

And you just dropped that penny for me!

 

[Spot261]

Yes you can. There are many disputed meanings going back decades. A Mary Sue does NOT have to come "from the outside".

May Sue was meant in the first instance as a light hearted observation that fan fiction often contains inserted (ie, non main cast) characters who serve as self insertions by an author. The character was written as female primarily as a statement on the fact that there was (even then) an observed bias in the credibility given to such characters in that there was, and remains, far more criticism targeted at female than male characters, specifically with regards to being competent or skilled.

It was alight hearted thing WE (yes, we, this is the very fandom which spawned the term and used it as an in joke for years before anyone else picked up on it) ran with because it worked on so many levels.

What it was not (and should never have become) was an insult or a term used to describe a particular character. Quite the contrary the way it is being misused in the current climate is precisely the opposite of it's intent, which was to parody and comment on the innate sexism which biased perceptions of such characters.

Not one tiny bit of which applies to Picard.

At all.

 

[Spot261]

Yes you can. There are many disputed meanings going back decades. A Mary Sue does NOT have to come "from the outside".

Yes.

They do.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Yes there are a number of definitions of it. That remains true. It does not mean NO flaws, and I said Moral Mary Sue to say that he is an ethical Mary Sue.

No he did not leave Starfleet in protest. He said he would resign if they cancelled the rescue effort. He staked his career on it. And they still said no. He already saved everyone we have seen so far. You mean he didnt go back to rescue even MORE Romulans? He had no fleet and no ships. That is not his fault. That is their fault.

Here's 3 defintions of a Mary sue which all state that such a character has no flaws or weaknesses.

https://grammarist.com/new-words/mary-sue/
https://www.dictionary.com/e/fictional-characters/mary-sue/
https://www.lexico.com/definition/mary_sue

You can call a piece of toast a coconut all you want but a piece of toast will never be a cococut.

Picard could have gone and lived the Romulans he saved. He could have gone to Vashti and taken a leadership position or contributed in other ways. He could have tried raising capital or he could have approached a neutral world, maybe one that he had dealings with when he was Captain of either Enterprises for help. He would never been able to mount the same rescue mission as Starfleet, but he could have done something. Instead he chose to do nothing. That is his fault. and it's pretty clear he feels a great deal of guilt for is inaction.

 

[Hythlodeus]

May Sue was meant in the first instance as a light hearted observation that fan fiction often contains inserted (ie, non main cast) characters who serve as self insertions by an author. The character was written as female primarily as a statement on the fact that there was (even then) an observed bias in the credibility given to such characters in that there was, and remains, far more criticism targeted at female than male characters, specifically with regards to being competent or skilled.

It was alight hearted thing WE (yes, we, this is the very fandom which spawned the term and used it as an in joke for years before anyone else picked up on it) ran with because it worked on so many levels.

What it was not (and should never have become) was an insult or a term used to describe a particular character. Quite the contrary the way it is being misused in the current climate is precisely the opposite of it's intent, which was to parody and comment on the innate sexism which biased perceptions of such characters.

Not one tiny bit of which applies to Picard.

At all.

Sadly, I can't like this post more than once

 

[Push The Button]

Why would he be? And what what their modern sci fi even be? They already have space magic. Old sci fi would just be silly speculation that didn't pan out.

Picard is a fan of classics. Asimov, Clarke, and certainly Jules Verne would qualify.

 

[DEWLine]

Definitely, Verne.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I'm thinking again about a comparison that I made after watching the first episode. This is "Remains of the Data," or rather that ST:PIC is following many of the themes of the film "Remains of the Day." Our main character is constantly re-evaluating his past actions and choices while on a journey to make one last thing right. In the past, great men made choices based on expediency rather than moral courage. They stopped far short of risking everything to protect the vulnerable. And they justified their (in)actions in terms of duty.

I'm not saying that this is a precise analogy or that Chabon is copying Remains of the Day. He and the writers may simply have set forth a number of themes and chosen to deal with them in ways that have created similar narrative directions as the movie.

 

[JoeZhang]

Picard is a fan of classics. Asimov, Clarke, and certainly Jules Verne would qualify.

Not for Picard - he doesn't like Science Fiction and does not get it.

 

[DaveyNY]

Not for Picard - he doesn't like Science Fiction and does not get it.

I kinda-sorta think that Jean-Luc was being facetious with that statement.
(and Sir Patrick was doing a wink & a nod at the viewing audience)

It's a bit incredulous to think that someone who feels they are destined to work in space, doesn't care for Science Fiction.
Picard obviously prefers Romantic Fiction/Shakespeare, but must enjoy Sci-Fi as well.
Otherwise why have an old copy of Asimov in his residence.

 

[oberth]

I kinda-sorta think that Jean-Luc was being facetious with that statement.
It's a bit incredulous to think that someone who feels they are destined to work in space, doesn't care for Science Fiction.

they're in space how long? they know nobody got anything right - a bit like some trekkies demanding a long overdue world war III