Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 1x04 - "Absolute Candor"

[Alan Roi]

That's not what leadership is.

He is not the CnC or the President of the Federation. Even as a 4-star, you have superior officers and civilian leaders. If the President tells the 4 star to stand down, then you stand down. Yes, Mr President. That's not a failure of leadership. It does mean that if everyone knows that he did not make this decision, he is not to blame for it. That doesnt mean the 4-star doesnt feel bad about an executive decision that s/he strongly disagrees with, but it wasnt his decision to make.

The Romulans and the entire Federation knew he opposed this, knew that he staked his career on this, and knew he was overruled by his superiors, who accepted his resignation when he threatened it. Picard did not fail as a leader. He was overruled by his superiors. He doesnt make Federation policy.

They could and should have written that he is responsible for at least SOME of this. Then there is a meaningful atonement/redemption story. But not when they went out of their way to show how he had no role in causing any of this to happen.

It's been made clear that Picard was the man who Spearheaded the operation and got Starfleet command on board. That is demonstrable leadership. It was not it seemed Federation policy to save the Romulans. That was all Picard, as far as we've been told. So whether or not he made Federation policy, he certain got what he wanted and as far as we've been told, was made the leader of the rescue mission.

As far as we've been told, after the attack occurred, he failed to sway Starfleet to keep on the goal as they agreed. This is called managing upwards, and yes it is a form of leadership and in this he failed.

We have no indication that he was willing to accept a reduced rescue mission which might have still saved many millions, and his statements in the show suggest that he was only willing to accept the full rescue as he felt the Federation was obligated to commit to or nothing. And as of ep. 4, he appears to recognize this as a tragic mistake on his part, not to mention his 15 years doing nothing to help those he promised to champion. These are multiple failures on his part, which he now readily acknowledges.

 

[Captain Killy]

That's not what leadership is.

He is not the CnC or the President of the Federation. Even as a 4-star, you have superior officers and civilian leaders. If the President tells the 4 star to stand down, then you stand down. Yes, Mr President. That's not a failure of leadership. It does mean that if everyone knows that he did not make this decision, he is not to blame for it. That doesnt mean the 4-star doesnt feel bad about an executive decision that s/he strongly disagrees with, but it wasnt his decision to make.

The Romulans and the entire Federation knew he opposed this, knew that he staked his career on this, and knew he was overruled by his superiors, who accepted his resignation when he threatened it. Picard did not fail as a leader. He was overruled by his superiors. He doesnt make Federation policy.

They could and should have written that he is responsible for at least SOME of this. Then there is a meaningful atonement/redemption story. But not when they went out of their way to show how he had no role in causing any of this to happen.

Picard. Gave. Up.

There were other options he could have tried even without Starfleet. He could have gone on TV and made his case, attempt to turn public opinion around. He could have appeals to individual worlds within the federation to build a civilian fleet. He could have appealed to other powers in the Quadrant. At that point he was still Jean-Luc Picard, the one we all remember, he still had connections and influence. He could have gone back to Vashti (like he promised he would) and worked with the people Starfleet abandoned. He could have maintained contact with the woman who depended on him. He could have maintained contact with the boy who looked up to him as a father figure. He could have done so much more, but he didn’t. He. Gave. Up. He couldn’t save all of them, so he gave up trying to save any of them.

TNG has often been criticized by fans for being rather smug and arrogant. TNG era Picard himself has been critiqued for this by fans. This Picard has has been directly called out on it by other characters in the series: It was sheer fucking hubris of him to just waltz into the CnC’s office after 14 years and expect to be given a ship and a crew even if he was so generously willing to take a demotion to a mere Captain. It was sheer fucking hubris of him to expect that Starfleet wouldn’t accept his resignation, to not even consider that that was a remote possibility. And that pride, that sense of self-importance, that moral smugness and superiority that was in many ways the hallmark of TNG, arguably Picard’s greatest character flaw, is the direct cause of all of his current problems. And he’s having to face that now, and it’s not been pleasant for him, because there were real world consequences to that hubris, there were casualties. The great and mighty Jean-Luc Picard didn’t get his way and instead of fighting for what he knew was right, he. gave. up.

That’s the sin he’s guilty of. Biblically speaking he’s Pontius Pilate here. He washed his hands of the whole bloody affair when he still had it in his power to make a difference...

 

[Amaris]

Picard. Gave. Up.

There were other options he could have tried even without Starfleet. He could have gone on TV and made his case, attempt to turn public opinion around. He could have appeals to individual worlds within the federation to build a civilian fleet. He could have appealed to other powers in the Quadrant. At that point he was still Jean-Luc Picard, the one we all remember, he still had connections and influence. He could have gone back to Vashti (like he promised he would) and worked with the people Starfleet abandoned. He could have maintained contact with the woman who depended on him. He could have maintained contact with the boy who looked up to him as a father figure. He could have done so much more, but he didn’t. He. Gave. Up. He couldn’t save all of them, so he gave up trying to save any of them.

TNG has often been criticized by fans for being rather smug and arrogant. TNG era Picard himself has been critiqued for this by fans. This Picard has has been directly called out on it by other characters in the series: It was sheer fucking hubris of him to just waltz into the CnC’s office after 14 years and expect to be given a ship and a crew even if he was so generously willing to take a demotion to a mere Captain. It was sheer fucking hubris of him to expect that Starfleet wouldn’t accept his resignation, to not even consider that that was a remote possibility. And that pride, that sense of self-importance, that moral smugness and superiority that was in many ways the hallmark of TNG, arguably Picard’s greatest character flaw, is the direct cause of all of his current problems. And he’s having to face that now, and it’s not been pleasant for him, because there were real world consequences to that hubris, there were casualties. The great and mighty Jean-Luc Picard didn’t get his way and instead of fighting for what he knew was right, he. gave. up.

That’s the sin he’s guilty of. Biblically speaking he’s Pontius Pilate here. He washed his hands of the whole bloody affair when he still had it in his power to make a difference...

This. Picard is a very good man, but he gave up his power and influence right when he needed to use it the most.

 

[Tarek71]

It's been made clear that Picard was the man who Spearheaded the operation and got Starfleet command on board. That is demonstrable leadership. It was not it seemed Federation policy to save the Romulans. That was all Picard, as far as we've been told. So whether or not he made Federation policy, he certain got what he wanted and as far as we've been told, was made the leader of the rescue mission.

As far as we've been told, after the attack occurred, he failed to sway Starfleet to keep on the goal as they agreed. This is called managing upwards, and yes it is a form of leadership and in this he failed.

We have no indication that he was willing to accept a reduced rescue mission which might have still saved many millions, and his statements in the show suggest that he was only willing to accept the full rescue as he felt the Federation was obligated to commit to or nothing. And as of ep. 4, he appears to recognize this as a tragic mistake on his part, not to mention his 15 years doing nothing to help those he promised to champion. These are multiple failures on his part, which he now readily acknowledges.

Cutting the Romulans loose was what the decision appears to have been. And 14 years later, Clancy still seems to think that that was the right decision. That is not a failure of leadership on Picards part. He staked his career on this. For a greatly reduced fleet, and they still said no, and accepted his resignation instead. If they countered with an even smaller fleet than proposed and he refused, that was not stated. By cutting them loose, it sounds like no further rescue on any scale.

At that point, as an officer, you can accept the decision, or if you feel strongly enough about it, you can resign. But the decision is made, you have your orders, request denied. No failures of leadership.

 

[thribs]

They should have made it clearer where this Vashti planet is. I assume it’s in neither Federation or Romulan space. Are these Rangers a new faction?

 

[Tarek71]

Picard. Gave. Up.

There were other options he could have tried even without Starfleet. He could have gone on TV and made his case, attempt to turn public opinion around. He could have appeals to individual worlds within the federation to build a civilian fleet. He could have appealed to other powers in the Quadrant. At that point he was still Jean-Luc Picard, the one we all remember, he still had connections and influence. He could have gone back to Vashti (like he promised he would) and worked with the people Starfleet abandoned. He could have maintained contact with the woman who depended on him. He could have maintained contact with the boy who looked up to him as a father figure. He could have done so much more, but he didn’t. He. Gave. Up. He couldn’t save all of them, so he gave up trying to save any of them.

TNG has often been criticized by fans for being rather smug and arrogant. TNG era Picard himself has been critiqued for this by fans. This Picard has has been directly called out on it by other characters in the series: It was sheer fucking hubris of him to just waltz into the CnC’s office after 14 years and expect to be given a ship and a crew even if he was so generously willing to take a demotion to a mere Captain. It was sheer fucking hubris of him to expect that Starfleet wouldn’t accept his resignation, to not even consider that that was a remote possibility. And that pride, that sense of self-importance, that moral smugness and superiority that was in many ways the hallmark of TNG, arguably Picard’s greatest character flaw, is the direct cause of all of his current problems. And he’s having to face that now, and it’s not been pleasant for him, because there were real world consequences to that hubris, there were casualties. The great and mighty Jean-Luc Picard didn’t get his way and instead of fighting for what he knew was right, he. gave. up.

That’s the sin he’s guilty of. Biblically speaking he’s Pontius Pilate here. He washed his hands of the whole bloody affair when he still had it in his power to make a difference...

This the problem here. They want this to be about him needing redemption, but they could have done that by making him responsible for at least SOME of this. Instead, he is the Moral Mary Sue who always takes the right stand, always the epitome of the Starfleet officer, and of all that is Right and Good and Just.

Saving 100s of thousands? Not good enough! Staking his whole career on continuing the rescue mission? Not good enough! He should have spent every day as a civilian trying to talk everyone else into doing the right thing, even though every Power in the Quadrant and every world in the Federation and the general public all know about the Romulan situation. If they dont help, that is on THEM, not on him.

But no, their inaction is somehow not their own fault, it is HIS fault for not trying hard enough to talk them into it. That's not something he needs redemption for. Nor was he required to be surrogate dad to Romulan orphans or take care of grown adult Raffi. She has a roof over her head, her own ship and is a grown adult. This isnt faulting him for his own moral failures, it is faulting him for the moral failures of others.

 

[Nerys Myk]

They should have made it clearer where this Vashti planet is. I assume it’s in neither Federation or Romulan space. Are these Rangers a new faction?

 

[NCC-73515]

What you see is what you get. It happened. So you have to fill in the blanks yourself. 20 years happened since last time we were in this timeline. First season is only 10 episodes long and some people complain they are spending too much time, as is, on background exposition and just want the story to go forward. So unless/if we get a series that focuses specifically on the interweaving 20 years, you're just going to fill in the blanks yourself.

Or read the novel and comic

 

[Tarek71]

This. Picard is a very good man, but he gave up his power and influence right when he needed to use it the most.

He threatened to resign if they end the rescue efforts. He staked his whole career on it. And they still said no. Like any officer, you have a decision to make. When they say, "request denied, you have your orders"...You can live with that decision and stay in uniform, or you can resign. That's what you have left to you.

The Klingons, Vulcans, Betazoids, Trill, Cardassians, Breen etc already know the situation. They dont need Picard to tell them about it. If they know they could help but decided not to, that is on them, not Picard. It makes him responsible for the moral failures of others. That is not a fair standard. "Well, he should have talked them into it!" That's on them, not him.

 

[Amaris]

He threatened to resign if they end the rescue efforts. He staked his whole career on it. And they still said no. Like any officer, you have a decision to make. When they say, request denied, you have your orders. You can live with that decision and stay in uniform, or you can resign. That's what you have left to you.

The Klingons, Vulcans, Betazoids, Trill, Cardassians, Breen etc know the situation. If they know they could help but decided not to, that is on them, not Picard. It makes him responsible for the moral failures of others. That is not a fair standard. Well, he should have talked them into it! That's on them, not him.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

Picard, a very good man, gave up. When he lost the backing of the Federation, he simply gave up. If someone is drowning, and the life guards refuse to enter the water because they fear for their safety, do you just give up? You find another way, and a man like Picard, who has friends and allies across the entire quadrant could have created a new plan, but instead he gave up. Right when he needed to fight his hardest, he stopped fighting. Just because you stop fighting doesn't mean the war has ended for everyone else.

 

[Tarek71]

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

Picard, a very good man, gave up. When he lost the backing of the Federation, he simply gave up. If someone is drowning, and the life guards refuse to enter the water because they fear for their safety, do you just give up? You find another way, and a man like Picard, who has friends and allies across the entire quadrant could have created a new plan, but instead he gave up. Right when he needed to fight his hardest, he stopped fighting. Just because you stop fighting doesn't mean the war has ended for everyone else.

That's why it doesnt work. It makes everything depend on one man. All the worlds of the Federation and the other powers in the Quadrant and the general population already know what is happening and what is at stake. They dont need Picard to explain it to everyone.

Either he is the moral conscience of an entire Quadrant, or he needs to atone for not being so? That is not a fair moral bar for him or anyone. He has no obligation to explain morality to 150 member worlds, or to the Klingons, Gorn, Breen or Cardassians. No doubt helping the Romulans was widely debated inside and outside the Federation. Making Picard responsible for convincing trillions of people to know what morality is, is a ludicrous idea. They know what's at stake. He did everything he could reasonably do.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

The point of the story isn't necessarily to convince you that he needs redemption (though it helps if you can relate). What's important to the story is that Picard feels he does. A promise is a prison.

 

[Tarek71]

The point of the story isn't necessarily to convince you that he needs redemption (though it helps if you can relate). What's important to the story is that Picard feels he does. A promise is a prison.

Having decided that he was not responsible for the relevant decisions, I think that is the only way to go.

 

[Evil Robert]

My only problem with this otherwise good episode?

Jeri Ryan's name was in the opening credits when she was the suprise last minute appearance at the end of the episode (a lot of shows will deliberately not put X actor in opening credits in this situation to avoid spoilng the 'surprise').

The other one I remember they did this and spoilt the suprise was Angel 4×21 'Peace Out' when TPTB put Stepanie Romanov in the guest stars section of the opening credits (thus learning Lilah would be returning even though she was killed off a number of episodes prior). All the more annoying as they did it 'right' by avoiding the spoil of the return of Darla in 1×22 'To Shanshu in L.A.' by placing Julie Benz' name only in the closing credits.

Rant over... lol

 

[Captain pl1ngpl0ng]

HAHA..the teaser for next week.... thats gonna be a Pimp-cosplay-party
This trek is highly different and entertaining... bizzare warrior nuns....
also, welcome Seven!!
(EDIT: maybe its because of another thread, but i got a slightly "firefly" feeling in this episode)

 

[Trekker4747]

Moral Mary Sue

Stop it.

My only problem with this otherwise good episode?

Jeri Ryan's name was in the opening credits when she was the suprise last minute appearance at the end of the episode (a lot of shows will deliberately not put X actor in opening credits in this situation to avoid spoilng the 'surprise').

I kind of doubt that. I'd need to see an example and in the circumstance need to know some behind-the-scenes information on it or, maybe, where the show was made.

The Screen Actors Guild pretty much demands that an actor's name appears somewhere in the credits, they cannot just be left out because "spoilers." There's even terms on how/where they have to appear. For someone like Jeri Ryan she's probably a "big" enough star, or at least has the clout with this franchise, to demand her name appear with the rest of the cast's credits and not be lumped in with all of the other "guest stars" that appeared in the episode (like the Romulan Senator, the little boy, the Romulan nun, etc. They're small enough roles they'd be in end credits somewhere) especially if her role is big enough she's going to be around for several episodes.

 

[Tarek71]

Stop it.

I wish Kurtzman would "Stop It". But apparently he won't. Tell him to stop Mary Sue-ing and I will agree to stop accurately pointing it out.

 

[SJGardner]

(EDIT: maybe its because of another thread, but i got a slightly "firefly" feeling in this episode)

I always love it when Star Trek does this. This Firefly-style, lived-in Space Western atmosphere works perfectly with frontier planets, be they Federation, Romulan, or any other colonies. It creates a beautiful contrast with the cosmopolitan, 'civilized' core of the Federation for me.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Jeri Ryan's name was in the opening credits when she was the suprise last minute appearance at the end of the episode (a lot of shows will deliberately not put X actor in opening credits in this situation to avoid spoilng the 'surprise').

My guess is that it was a contractual decision that lead to Jeri's name in the opening credits. She or more likely her agent may have negotiated for main cast billing as opposed for guest star billing

Tell him to stop Mary Sue-ing

You do know what an actual Mary-Sue is, right? Because I don't think you're using the term accurately at all.

 

[Trekker4747]

You do know what an actual Mary-Sue is, right? Because I don't think you're using the term accurately at all.

He's not, and it's getting very, very, very annoying to constantly see the phrase used everywhere by pretty much everyone who doesn't like some aspect of a show/movie particularly when it relates to a female character.

But to attach the "Moral" to the front of it and then apply it to a male character is just...

JTFC