Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 1x02 - "Maps and Legends"

[Longinus]

They're kept in a storage locker, called "plastic", insulted because they're not human, etc.

You really think they were being viewed as just another worker?

That people were racist towards them doesn't mean they were slaves. Pulaski was racist towards Data and McCoy towards Spock.

 

[KennyB]

Let's assume he does not know about them during the Romulan evacuation.

The public widely knows about the synthetics at the point of the broadcast interview. The reporter specifically mentions this, and goes on to question Picard on his trust in synthetics. 1

1. He gives no indication that he was unaware of their use.
2. He does not protest when they compare them to data as one might expect if they were "dumbbots". He simply says he trusted him and did not know why the synths did what they did.
3. He never mentions at all the ethics of using them in the first place. We know he cares deeply about at least one android, and in the past he has shown respect for these life forms and even dumber life forms at the cost of his own.
4. Even if he did not know about them until afterwards, it does not make sense that he does not mention his condemnation for Starfleet for using an android slave race. He would at the very least included it in his lists of grievances against them to explain his exit.

OK you are right. Writers suck. I'll quit watching.

 

[Yminale]

The fact they didn't even focus on that was a mistake.

There's no scenario where Picard, during his public outrage, does NOT bring up slave androids as a primary reason for him leaving Starfleet. ESPECIALLY since he seems to focus so much on his respect for Data in this show.

It's a serious writing oversight as I see it, so far.

Those androids weren't "slaves" as they weren't sentient. I agree it would be nice to have more context like they introduced the synth's after the Dominion War to rebuild the fleet. I don't think they are going down the Battlestar Galactica route.

 

[BillJ]

From the comic, they have pretty good reasons to be loyal to Picard.

But also, pretty good reasons to act suspiciously.

I don't know where they are headed with the two of them. But it is essentially loyalty of home and people versus loyalty to a single man.

 

[ITDUDE]

[/QUOTE]
People knew about Synths. The news immediately said that "Synths attacked Mars". If they didn't know about Synths then they couldn't report on them.
And I don't consider Synths as shown to be, slave labor. They are robots with limited interaction skills and definitely not sentient. And they definitely didn't rebel, they were hacked. Now, maybe Starfleet never figured out it was a hack and blamed the Synths for the attacks (hence the ban).
In any case, they are definitely not slaves. If they are not sentient then they are not slaves.

EDIT:

Those androids weren't "slaves" as they weren't sentient.

Great minds think alike and are also ninjas

 

[Longinus]

Those androids didn’t seem to reach the threshold of sentience.

Seemed pretty sentient to me. And even sapient, what is usually erroneously meant with 'sentient' in Star Trek.

 

[B. L.]

OK you are right. Writers suck. I'll quit watching.

It's healthy to provide criticism. After all, it is clear the producers respond to it. Look at Discovery Season 2 and the way it changed after fan reaction.

I also feel it's perfectly fine to have discussion on this, which is why we have forums to begin with.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Normalize what? That people can meet, be interested in one another, and have sex? That's becoming more rare?



All mean-sounding examples. Really proliferates the myth that if a woman rejects someone she's a bitch. A woman can say "no, not interested," and there's literally nothing sinister or malicious in that at all. If you perceive it that way, that's your problem and no one else's.

Yeah, that is sounding like a stealth Incel kind of comment. Like, you wouldn’t approach a woman you didn’t find attractive, but if she rejects you for not finding you attractive she’s being a b?

Maybe you should take a look at how you’re presenting yourself and whether women feel safe around you and find you attractive instead of blaming them when they don’t.

 

[Racefuel]

People knew about Synths. The news immediately said that "Synths attacked Mars". If they didn't know about Synths then they couldn't report on them.
And I don't consider Synths as shown to be, slave labor. They are robots with limited interaction skills and definitely not sentient. And they definitely didn't rebel, they were hacked. Now, maybe Starfleet never figured out it was a hack and blamed the Synths for the attacks (hence the ban).
In any case, they are definitely not slaves. If they are not sentient then they are not slaves.

Fair enough..they're basically just walking versions of assembly line robots we have today then..

 

[Datasbeard]

Again, this is Picard's perception of what Starfleet should be versus what it actually is. You know how Worf is more Klingon than Klingon? Picard is more Starfleet than Starfleet. Most of Starfleet doesn't think like him. They're not textbook officers, whereas Picard is.

That seems like an unsupported generalization. Yes, Picard is a champion of Starfleet's most idealistic values, but that doesn't mean he's in the minority. The truth is, we most often see him espouse his views on this when facing someone who doesn't share them, which is why it comes in such stark contrast. But I'm not sure that Crusher, Riker, or Troi don't feel exactly the same way. We see some departures from this with Sisko on DS9 (one very notable departure), but actually, I think most of his character is largely consistent with that too. Janeway is a different story. But I just don't see Picard as an abnormality in this.

 

[BillJ]

Seemed pretty sentient to me. And even sapient, what is usually erroneously meant with 'sentient' in Star Trek.

You could tell off that one two minute clip that they were sapient?

 

[B. L.]

People knew about Synths. The news immediately said that "Synths attacked Mars". If they didn't know about Synths then they couldn't report on them.
And I don't consider Synths as shown to be, slave labor. They are robots with limited interaction skills and definitely not sentient. And they definitely didn't rebel, they were hacked. Now, maybe Starfleet never figured out it was a hack and blamed the Synths for the attacks (hence the ban).
In any case, they are definitely not slaves. If they are not sentient then they are not slaves.

Then why didn't Picard make a clear distinction between him and the synths when questioned?

 

[eschaton]

And I don't consider Synths as shown to be, slave labor. They are robots with limited interaction skills and definitely not sentient. And they definitely didn't rebel, they were hacked. Now, maybe Starfleet never figured out it was a hack and blamed the Synths for the attacks (hence the ban).

Even if they were hacked - and it's known - it's a good reason to ban them (provided they aren't self aware). I mean, it means that if they don't have a decent "firewall" your plastic pal who's fun to be with could turn around and snap your neck in a second. Who wants to deal with that.

I saw no evidence in the short scene that the type of synths shown was self-aware. Just because it looks like a human doesn't mean it has a consciousness - any more than the Horta looking nothing like a human meant that it lacked a consciousness.

 

[Noname Given]

^^^
Lol - What is it about Sir Patrick Stewart and his role as Picard that always seems to create shots and lines that can be easily co-opted to hilarious internet memes?

 

[Longinus]

You could tell off that one two minute clip that they were sapient?

I say 'seemed'. I of course cannot tell for sure, but I cannot tell that for sure about real humans either. (See: 'hard problem of consciousness.)

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Seemed pretty sentient to me. And even sapient, what is usually erroneously meant with 'sentient' in Star Trek.

All we saw them do in the show was try to repeat social feedback in the wrong context less effectively than season 1 Data. And they didn’t seem to have their own independent motives. It was also clear in the show no android that did not derive from Data ever replicated Data’s complexity.

Also if they were sapient, how do we know if one asked to leave they would not be allowed to?

 

[eschaton]

All we saw them do in the show was try to repeat social feedback in the wrong context less effectively than season 1 Data. And they didn’t seem to have their own independent motives. It was also clear in the show no android that did not derive from Data ever replicated Data’s complexity.

Frankly, the attempts at conversation by F-8 were worse than contemporary chatbots.

 

[Datasbeard]

You really think they were being viewed as just another worker?

Humans dehumanize. Sad but true. We're a total shit species. But…that doesn't mean that these synths were sentient. I'm sure some store employees do disgusting things to mannequins in stores. I'm sure they'll claim it's a "joke", even though it's not funny in any way. But none of that means the mannequins are sentient or slaves. That would devalue the concept of slavery, in my view. But it also doesn't excuse the disgusting behavior of the store employees. Rather, it should inform the kind of response one ought to have, and whom it should be directed at.

 

[fireproof78]

My point is I don't think ANYONE outside the facility knew about the army of slave androids. How could Picard complain if he did not know about them. We need more info before we pass judgment on Picard or the writing staff.

Premature judgement is way more fun.

Again, this is Picard's perception of what Starfleet should be versus what it actually is. You know how Worf is more Klingon than Klingon? Picard is more Starfleet than Starfleet. Most of Starfleet doesn't think like him. They're not textbook officers, whereas Picard is.

Indeed. Picard's standards are extremely high.

One more thing I forgot to mention...
Romulans with ridges, definitely saw some some ridges on Romulan guards. Not as pronounced as TNG, but definitely confirms that there are different Romulan races

I'm glad to see more of the Romulans and even more variety.

We're a total shit species.

That's the spirit that will get us through these hard times...

Good grief. I get more optimism from working with people with mental health challenges than from Star Trek fans.

 

[Longinus]

All we saw them do in the show was try to repeat social feedback in the wrong context less effectively than season 1 Data. And they didn’t seem to have their own independent motives. It was also clear in the show no android that did not derive from Data ever replicated Data’s complexity.

Mastering human social interaction and having complex motives are not required for sentience. Babies are sentient, gold fish are sentient (or that seems likely given the current scientific understanding.) Sure, the synths could be just automatons, but lacking the qualities you mention doesn't prove that they are nor would possessing them mean that they aren't.

Also if they were sapient, how do we know if one asked to leave they would not be allowed to?

We don't. And that's why I said earlier that argument that they're slaves was baseless.