Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 1x02 - "Maps and Legends"

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Picard' started by Commander Richard, Jan 28, 2020.

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Rate the episode...

  1. 10 - TNG is back!

    15.4%
  2. 9

    22.8%
  3. 8

    34.6%
  4. 7

    12.1%
  5. 6

    8.1%
  6. 5

    3.7%
  7. 4

    1.3%
  8. 3

    0.7%
  9. 2

    0.7%
  10. 1 - TNG is back.

    0.7%
  1. Push The Button

    Push The Button Commodore Commodore

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  2. wayoung

    wayoung Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Because promoting "real" conspiracy theories is dangerous, naming a street after an ancient Norse god isn't.

    This may sound sarcastic but it's not: Google dangers of promoting conspiracy theories. This isn't the place to go into it but, fuck, starting down the path into them ends up in a world of hurt. Promoting them is not cool. Imagine if Picard started talking about how Jews control the Federation and are controlling the population through vaccines - because most people who believe in Nibiru, also believe in anti semetic/pizza fate/Qanon/other dangerous conspiracies. Not that believing in Nibiru isn't a huge issue on its own.
     
  3. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm giving this an 8. This had me engaged and kept me interested but it wasn't as visceral as "Remembrance", which I gave a 9. Both episodes are good, but neither prompts to me to break out the 10 yet. I'll know it when I see it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
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  4. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    Still trying to figure out "dangerous" if it doesn't impact anyone else. And, bear in mind, I work in the mental health sector and encounter a wide variety of delusional, irrational and conspiracy style beliefs.

    Orci didn't promote them in Trek. He simply wrote a story around a concept he finds interesting. HIm being a truther, beyond the base outline, didn't impact Trek or the world at large.

    I'm always leery of labeling thoughts "dangerous" when it isn't impacting a story or product. Calling something Nibiru isn't dangerous.
     
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  5. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Somebody believing that President Kennedy was assassinated by Frank Sinatra's drummer or that chemtrails are a government conspiracy doesn't hurt you nor do they hurt anybody. Conspiracy theories run the gamut from plausible to downright insane but personal belief in something crazy doesn't mean it's necessarily "dangerous." I think 9/11 Truthers are often one chromosome removed from mayonnaise but at the end of the day none of them hold high positions of power(that we know) and their opinions are almost always discredited or laughed down by more rational and informed opponents.
     
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  6. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I liked this one pretty much on-par with episode 1. I really appreciate the differences in tone, style, and pacing from DSC. It serves to keep both productions feeling fresh and suitably distinct from each other.

    A few random points:
    1. If the entire series was just Picard and the two Romulan Tal Shiar-turned-vineyard-employees, I'd totally still watch that.
    2. Seemingly, I have very different tastes than a lot of people. Almost just like last week's scene with the reporter, my favorite scene this week was Admiral Clancy telling Picard to go shit in his hat. Stewart shines in both scenes and they really set the tone for what Picard is going through. Seems like many disagree though.
    3. For whatever reason, any time they cut back to the Borg Cube, I find myself rapidly losing interest. I also think it was a mistake to have Soji jump in bed with bad Romulan Guy so quickly. It felt forced and unnatural.
    4. I predicted Lorca would NOT be a Mirror Universe duplicate in DSC. I also predicted quite adamantly that Irrumodic Syndrome would not feature in PIC. One could reasonably conclude that I suck at predictions.
    5. I loved the opener showing the flashback on Mars. I'd love to see more as the series progresses.
    6. The shadowy double cross stuff with the Rommie agents is intriguing. I'm curious to see where it goes.
    7. There are some people posting here who are REALLY tied up in the whole "Federation Utopia/evolved humanity" Star Trek rhetoric. It's pretty amazing how bought-in some fans are.

    8/10
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
  7. LtChange

    LtChange Captain Captain

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    Well this was just a world building episode. I don't mind that I'm fine with it, but I cannot give a 10. I will go with a 9/10 on this one. I would have gone with a 8/10 but I love the Mars scenes at the beginning
     
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  8. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    Exactly. Even a brief article I read noted that fighting "fire with fire" (i.e. intense argumentation or banning conspiracy style thinking) is not necessarily helpful, and providing access to information and allowing for discourse may be more helpful. Argumentation just cements belief, while discourse can encourage and challenge points of view.
     
  9. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I agree with you but given that this show is based off TNG, I think it's more understandable here than with DSC. I treat it like I'm learning how to speak a foreign language.
     
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  10. wayoung

    wayoung Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You don't know his addition of real world conspiracy theories into Tek didn't impact Tek or anyone else. That's a generalised statement that can't be defended. If you go back to Into Darkness's release you'll find a great deal of criticism of his including Nibiru in it, as well as entire articles about how Orciused the film to promote his 9/11 truther beliefs. He wrote the film as conspiracy theory propoganda - which actually ends up being held as proof by conspiracy theorists that most of Hollywood is sending out coded conspiracy messages. If one person Google's Nibiru and ended up falling for it or some other conspiracy scam that's at least one person harmed.

    Nibiru, Harold Camping, and all the other. Apocalies may be funny to us looking from the outside but they cause real harm to those who believe in them, and are part of the problem with today's rejection of intellectual authority. They're also a growing menace and are strongly tied to right wing terrorism as well as the anti vax movement. The people who believe in Nibiru also believe Sandy Hook was a false flag and are notorious for stalking and harrassing the family members of the deceased.

    Whether you want to label them as such or not, conspiracy theories of the like are well documented as dangerous. I'd prefer the franchise not indulge/support them. As I said before, there's nothing wrong with a story around a conspiracy. There is something wrong if the head of the conspiracy ends up being the plot of a Ferengi banker named S'oros who secretly put nanites in every anti flu shot hypo spray in the Federation as part of his attempt to control the galaxy
     
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  11. wayoung

    wayoung Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Tell that to the Sandy Hook families who are driven from home to home by people stalking them claiming they fakes their children's deaths.
     
  12. wayoung

    wayoung Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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  13. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Alex Jones was taken to court for overstepping his bounds and committing libel against those families and deservedly so. Not every conspiracy theory is dangerous and you know when you see and hear the ones that are.

    Not all weird ideas are the same nor should they be viewed the same. Laugh at the ones that are dumb and discredit the ones that are incredibly stupid, but don't treat them all the same.
     
  14. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, I'm not seeing Orci's Niburi tying in to the anti-vaxxer debate. So, I'll just agree to disagree and move on. Because, honestly, declaring thinking dangerous is what makes it appealing in the first place.

    Yeah, I can't even take that article seriously. It rails against conspiracy theories while coming across as conspiracy theory itself.

    As @cooleddie74 points out there are varying degrees of conspiracy theory and their thinking. One article I read from Psychology Today stated that roughly half the population of the United States believe in some conspiracy theory or another.

    My point is this: trust but verify. I do my research, I know how to do it, and I point people that way. If it causes physical harm then prosecute. There are harassment, libel and slander laws for a reason.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
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  15. wayoung

    wayoung Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You keep writing like I'm saying all discussion of conspiracies must be banned thought police style. I never once said that. I said I don't feel Trek should be referencing real conspiracy theories as promoting them can be dangerous.

    The link I provided was the first one that popped up discussing the FBIs position on conspiracy theories. Whether you like the article or not, the basis of it is factual. That is the FBI's view on them.

    There are numerous academic articles also showing the same, in particular there was a good one from last January that found that mere exposure to conspiracy theories increased likelihood to commit crimes.

    There's no reason to name a planet Nibiru other than to promote Nibiru. The planet could have been named Alpha Beta Omega 4. But it wasn't. They intentionally linked it to a real world conspiracy theory that has caused real harm despite people in this thread dismissing it - the Nibiru conspiracy theory has been responsible for people being financially ruined, attempted suicides, threatened suicides, threats of violence against astronomers, and perpetuating the idea that NASA is lying to us.

    Star Trek is an allegory of our present. I'd prefer that that allegory not support real world conspiracy theories. That's my preference for the franchise. That's my issue with its referencing real conspiracy theories.
     
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  16. Cyrus

    Cyrus Vice Admiral Admiral

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    This episode was OK, didn't like it as much as the first one, the story didn't flow as nicely. The Romulan Commodore lady was too much of a mustache twirling villain for me.

    There has been talk of Geordi dying on Mars but when he was mentioned (along with Riker and Worf) Picard has no reaction. I think he is alive and we will see him eventually. Would have been stupid to kill him off screen anyway.

    What is that whtie haired alien that seems to be wearing a mask? We see her on Borg cube an the starfleet transporter scenes.

    Picard has an Asimov book (Complete Robot). Nice touch by the producers since Data was based on an Asimov robot. But the robots attacking Mars did't follow any of the 3 laws.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
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  17. thribs

    thribs Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Imagine that lady talking to Lorca like that. She would have lost her head. :)
     
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  18. RedShirt2009

    RedShirt2009 Ensign Newbie

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    I really enjoyed this episode and was on the edge of my seat the entire time. The episode was so good it just flew by and was over before I knew it.
     
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  19. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    A little more research indicated that was one FBI's field office views. Reviewing the FBI's website did not turn up any additional information regarding their view on domestic terrorism and conspiracy theories.

    More concerning is the very broad language used in the FBI Phoenix memo, since it could include many different types of speech and declare them to be "conspiracy theory" and fueling violence. It makes me concerned at such language. Regardless, with more research, it isn't just "FBI official views" as though it is agency wide policy, at least from what I could find. More research needs to be done.

    Regardless, referring to "Nibiru" in a Star Trek film is not inciting suicide, or giving credence to a conspiracy theory, since it makes no reference to that theory other than the name. So, I, once again, am failing to follow this line of thinking.

    I would like to see how they are "promoting them." This is like saying the Matrix film is responsible for books published endorsing the idea that life is a dream, or Stargate is responsible for "ancient aliens" being perpetuated.

    It's a strange link, to be sure, and it's not endorsing "dangerous" ideas by using a name, even if Orci believes in conspiracy theories. He's not stating that Nibiru is near Earth.

    I just don't see it doing that. Even a cursory search of Nibiru immediately pointed towards NASA and space.com sites for actually pictures and information, not conspiracy sites.

    In any case, I feel like banning any subject from Trek is a slippery slope, at best.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
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  20. Noname Given

    Noname Given Admiral Admiral

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    ^^^
    I thought the Admiral's point was spot on, and Picard (as usual) was being his old hypocritical self.

    Case in point:

    - The TNG era Prime Directive pretty much instructs Captains to STAY OUT of the affairs of ANY CIVILIZATION that isn't a member. Picard may have broken it on occasion, but he also FOLLOWED it too meqaning YES the Federation DID have a DIRECTIVE IN PLACE that gave guidance as to WHEN the Federation would allow a Civilization to fall.

    Hell two example FROM TNG episodes:

    TNG S2 - "Pen Pals": Picard is first arguing FOR obeying the PD. He only relents after he finds out Data has been ib contact with one of the inhabitants; hje relents and ultimately Wesley comes up with a solution that works - but requires DIRECT interference ( via photon torpedoes) that save the planet.

    TNG S7 - "Homeward": In the one, the 1701-D is there to pick up a researcher (who just happens to be Worf's brother) who's been studying a Civilization; BUT the planet's atmosphere is dissipating - meaning said inhabitants will all die - and hell, Picard even says:
    http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/265.htm
    Of course Worf's Brother beams the villagers he was interacting with onto the Holodeck and convinces Picard to find them a new planet, etc. But one of the villagers finds out, commits ritual suicide and Picard the hypocriote had to lay the usual guilt trip on Work's brother as ONLY Picard can (and often did when Worf did something Klingon that Picard didn't agree with):

    So yeah, sorry. The Admiral was 100% right in what she said and hell as a Captain in many situations, yes, Picard and the Federation HAVE OFTEN decided the fates of various civilizations. (I won't even go into the whole Cardassian/Bajoran situation the Federation stood by and watched for DECADES; and of which Picard often played a role in CITING the PD as justification of the Federation allowing it all. :rommie:)

    The ONLY reason Picard disagreed with the Admiral in this latest meeting was because he was trying to ride his high horse of hypocrisy because he's on one of his internal moral crusades again. Also, given that Picard KNEW he wasn't fit for duty (but got one of his old crew mates from the Stargazer to LIE on the Certified For Space Duty Certificate) -- Picard (at 94) wa ready to take a grade reduction to Captain and lead a ship of Federation officers (risking all their lives in the process); JUST for his personal moral crusade.

    TLDR: If there was ONE TIME Picard 100% DESERVED the dressing down he got -- this scene was it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
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