For the second time.
Star Trek Online and Countdown Graphic Novel Continuities
- Thread starter The Super Brando
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That was a spoiler to me. Please keep in mind some people read Trek books at a slower pace than they are actually produced.
^There are people who haven't seen The Empire Strikes Back yet either, but there comes a time when it's no longer a spoiler that Darth Vader is Luke's father.
Besides, it's not like the fact that Picard is having a son is some huge surprise that comes at the end of the story. It's not on a par with "Darth is Luke's father," it's more on a par with "Leia wears a metal bikini." Knowing it in advance doesn't ruin the story. That's what the word "spoiler" is supposed to mean -- not just any advance information, but specifically a revelation that would spoil the experience if known in advance.
(And yeah, I know the metal bikini's from the movie after that. But I like the metal bikini...)
Besides, it's not like the fact that Picard is having a son is some huge surprise that comes at the end of the story. It's not on a par with "Darth is Luke's father," it's more on a par with "Leia wears a metal bikini." Knowing it in advance doesn't ruin the story. That's what the word "spoiler" is supposed to mean -- not just any advance information, but specifically a revelation that would spoil the experience if known in advance.
(And yeah, I know the metal bikini's from the movie after that. But I like the metal bikini...)
Not to mention that Starfleet doesn't routinely ask Benjamin Sisko who should be promoted. With everything that's happened in the years since that DS9 episode, with so many Starfleet officers dead, Starfleet is likely to move past that incident and give a captaincy to a uniquely qualified officer.
That was one of the things that bugged me about Countdown: it felt as though Vulcan had left the Federation. They didn't share red matter technology with anyone else, and they had their own ambassador on Romulus, where Spock lived and served as the Federation ambassador. They also saw Spock as a traitor. That all just felt wrong.
To be fair, the canon and the novels have both blurred those lines a bit in the past. Sarek is established as Vulcan Ambassador to Earth in the 2240s in Star Trek (2009) (and had been previously established as Vulcan Ambassador to Earth as late as the 2270s in Spock's World), and in "Journey to Babel," the representatives were Ambassadors of Federation Member States rather than Federation Councillors, obeying the instructions of their home governments rather than taking their own independent positions as true legislators would. Meanwhile, the DS9 novels Hollow Men and Bajor: Fragments and Omens established that in the 2370s, Alpha Centauri and Bajor both maintain embassies on Earth even after they've both become Federation Member States.
And finally, the ENT episode "In A Mirror, Darkly" had a biographical screen that established that Jonathan Archer became "Ambassador to Andoria" in the 2170s after Andor had helped establish the Federation -- and the novel Destiny: Mere Mortals clarified that he had become Federation Ambassador to Andoria.
Meanwhile, of course, numerous other depictions of the Federation have given it powers unique to sovereign states rather than mere alliances.
My personal theory would be that early into its formation, the Federation maintained ambassadors to its Member States, in order to facilitate the integration of the various legal, political, and cultural systems into one Federation, and that Member States also maintained ambassadors to one-another for that same purpose. I'm inclined to presume that those ambassadorships were probably abolished by the time of the final consolidation of the Federation into a truly federal state, possibly after the Babel Crisis (in which it was established that the Federation was on the verge of civil war because some Federation Member States, like Tellar, were seeking to economically exploit Coridan rather than follow Federation law and allow it to enter as a Member State in its own right).
Embassies from Member States, I would assume, still exist on the Federation capital planet either for ceremonial purposes, or to provide office space and/or residences for their respective worlds' Federation Councillors.
Perhaps in the Countdown continuity, it had seceded from the Federation? That would go a long way towards explaining why the Vulcan government refused to help the Romulans yet no Federation agencies stepped in to force them to do so. It would also help explain why Nero blames Spock for the Hobus Star -- he has a legitimate grievance against the Vulcan government and blames Spock for Vulcan's actions, as though he were the living embodiment of the Vulcan elite.
Yes, I can accept the idea that "ambassador" in the Federation has become a title for council members; perhaps they were originally more literal ambassadors and kept the title as the Council and the Federation became more consolidated. But what I have a problem with is the reverse. I can buy a member world's representative to the Federation Council being called an ambassador, but I don't see why the Federation government would in turn have ambassadors to its members.
2170s, fine. Again, the system was probably looser then. But that doesn't seem consistent with the much more consolidated Federation of the late 24th century.
That would be a rather drastic event to leave unexplained in the text. I think if that had been the writers' intention, they would've mentioned it.
I agree -- I've argued in numerous other threads that the preponderance of evidence is of the Federation as a state, not the Federation as a coalition or alliance. I just wanted to make sure the relevant data was out there, though.
It probably wasn't the writers' intent, but it is how I would tend to interpret the text given how inconsistent the Vulcan government's behavior is with Federation law and how inconsistent the depiction of the Federation government's relationship with Vulcan is with the idea of a consolidated Federation.
^My $0.02 on this:
It looks like the main problem with Countdown is simply the terminology used in the comic--the Vulcan "Praetor", Picard as the UFP ambassador to Vulcan, etc.
Perhaps, if a novelization of the comic should come out, it would be wise to clear up all the confusion by tweaking the terminology a bit. Nothing to change the story, just some polishing, so that it'll make more sense.
Perhaps "ambassador to Vulcan" could become "ambassador for Vulcan", "Praetor" could be "First Minister"... or whatever the chief executive for Vulcan is, etc.
On Worf being a general...look, "All Good Things..." has Worf as a High Council Member. Just saying it may not be impossible....
As for Vulcan possibly secceeding from the UFP--gosh, I hope not. But perhaps, in the recovery from the Borg attack, perhaps the Vulcan Government enters a period of relative isolation, so as to handle their own recovery, without Federation aid. To whit, "It would be illogical for us to be a drain on aid programs other worlds need, when it would be better for us to handle this recovery ourselves...."
With this separation from external affairs...perhaps an "ambassador to Vulcan" would not be impossible.
It looks like the main problem with Countdown is simply the terminology used in the comic--the Vulcan "Praetor", Picard as the UFP ambassador to Vulcan, etc.
Perhaps, if a novelization of the comic should come out, it would be wise to clear up all the confusion by tweaking the terminology a bit. Nothing to change the story, just some polishing, so that it'll make more sense.
Perhaps "ambassador to Vulcan" could become "ambassador for Vulcan", "Praetor" could be "First Minister"... or whatever the chief executive for Vulcan is, etc.
On Worf being a general...look, "All Good Things..." has Worf as a High Council Member. Just saying it may not be impossible....
As for Vulcan possibly secceeding from the UFP--gosh, I hope not. But perhaps, in the recovery from the Borg attack, perhaps the Vulcan Government enters a period of relative isolation, so as to handle their own recovery, without Federation aid. To whit, "It would be illogical for us to be a drain on aid programs other worlds need, when it would be better for us to handle this recovery ourselves...."
With this separation from external affairs...perhaps an "ambassador to Vulcan" would not be impossible.
Amusingly enough, even TrekLit has had some confusion here. Towards the end of Enterprise: Kobayashi Maru, T'Pau, as leader of Vulcan, was established to be the First Minister of the Confederacy of Vulcan. But in Enterprise: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing, he is referred to as Administrator (the title previously held by V'Las), with no acknowledgement of the apparent contradiction.
So... Administrator, First Minister, Praetor.... Take your pick!
^Eactly what I was thinking!
T'Pau's a she--always has been, ENT or TOS....
Okay, okay--I see Sci's point, though. So, Let He Who Is Without Inconsistencies...
BTW, do you realize that Mike wrote both books? That makes it even less of an excuse.
I swear, he's slipping without Andy.
T'Pau's a she--always has been, ENT or TOS....
Okay, okay--I see Sci's point, though. So, Let He Who Is Without Inconsistencies...
BTW, do you realize that Mike wrote both books? That makes it even less of an excuse.
I swear, he's slipping without Andy.
^Eactly what I was thinking!
T'Pau's a she--always has been, ENT or TOS....
One typo...!
I think that has less to do with the absence of Andy Mangels than it does with Margaret Clark having been saddled with twice as much work as she'd previously had upon the loss of Marco Palmieri. I noticed a lot more typos and other minor mistakes than usual in Beneath the Raptor's Wing, and I would presume that's a function of it being edited in the middle of all that editorial upheaval.
It's equally valid that we can interprete that the download has finally started to "take".
I've downloaded programs into computers that have refused to work straight away - and needed a computer shutdown, a reboot, or to be moved into a different file, in order to open.
I don't think it's as valid in the context of the film's theme and structure. In that context, the purpose of the B-4 character was to be a parallel for the Shinzon character: a counterpart who was superficially identical to the main character but who turned out to lack the capacity for self-knowledge and self-improvement that made the main character who he was. That's what the film was about, thematically: the idea that our capacity to learn, grow, and improve ourselves is key to our humanity.
And that's why all this fixation on the memory download from Data is missing the point of the film. It was never meant to turn B-4 into Data, but to give him the capacity to grow into his own being. The symmetry of the film was that both Shinzon and B-4 were too limited and rigid compared to their counterparts. But B-4's hint of growth at the end was a hopeful note, not that Data himself might rise from the dead, but that B-4 might have begun to break free of the trap that doomed Shinzon, might have begun to live up to Data's hopes that he could learn and grow as an individual. Shinzon's tale ended in tragedy because he couldn't learn or change, but we were left with a ray of hope that B-4 might avoid that fate because of Data's gift to him.
^And, as I said before, as Data is referred to in the comic as a reconstructed android, perhaps the Daystrom Institute copied the files B-4 possesed, and downloaded them into a new, advanced body--(possibly built by Dr. Maddox).
Thus, you have B-4, and you have Data back. Win-Win scenario.
Thus, you have B-4, and you have Data back. Win-Win scenario.
I think it would be interesting if B4 grew up to be his own person, and to honor his brother took the name "Data" as his last name. Therefore he would be Capt Data, but also B4. He would have many similarities to Data, and even a fondness for Data's friends because of all the memories.
It would be very interesting to see that character evolve, and to see him interact with all of Data's old friends, and how they react to him.
It would be very interesting to see that character evolve, and to see him interact with all of Data's old friends, and how they react to him.
So his name would be B-4 Data? Hahaha...
He was able to remove the VISOR for many of those years.
No, it was meant to ensure there was a part for Brent Spiner to play in a future "Nemesis" sequel, if Paramount was willing to meet his price.
I suspect, had he returned, Spiner would have taken the opportunity to develop a rather different personality for a B-4-containing-Data's-memories than that of the former Data.
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