Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

[BillJ]

At times it feels like the movie is either self parody or badly written fan fiction.

Nah, that honour goes to "Star Trek V: The Final Frontier".

And a whole lot of Berman Trek.

 

[DonIago]

I just have to say, anyone who thinks Khan goes over the top in ID really, really needs to watch TWoK again.

Going over the top is what Khan's all about. At least, it is once you've pissed him off.

 

[Cara007]

I don't think so. Hell, in ST09 nuSpock loses his mother and his entire planet and doesn't break out and cry like a baby.

He loses someone he's been at odds with for 1/2 the time they've known each other and that puts him over the top?

You seem to have missed that whole conversation in the shuttle on the way to Kronos.
The writers have their character explain here exactly why he snaps later on.

So, yes, "that" (the death of a colleague and friend with whom Spock worked for quite a while at that point) was the drop that..., the hair that...

That and -- .

In ST09 he damned near kills Kirk as all his pent-up emotions over the death of his mother come out all at once.

In STID he knows what Kirk is going through because of his mind meld with Pike. It isn't just cold death, any more. He knows Kirk is suffering, and can do nothing but watch.

It also isn't grief over what was, it's grief over what won't be. Spock realizes what genuine friendship is about for the first time as Kirk is dying. In TWOK, the dying Spock professed he always had been Kirk's friend, something he may have never been so explicit about, before. In STID, Kirk tells Spock he is his friend, which is why he was willing to risk breaking the Prime Directive in order to save him. Spock now realizes the value of friendship, but he can't save Kirk.

I'm also sure Spock didn't forget what Spock Prime told him in ST09 about Kirk and Spock needing each other and about all they could accomplish together, and how each would help define the other in amazing ways. And then it all comes to an end prematurely because of Khan. Wouldn't that cause even the most stoic person to erupt?

Yes I am guessing you right. Is not about Spock's reaction that I frowned upon. I just wished he didn't scream Khan or they did noy re-act the death scene from WOK.


Kirk should have died differently.

 

[beamMe]

In ST09 he damned near kills Kirk as all his pent-up emotions over the death of his mother come out all at once.

In STID he knows what Kirk is going through because of his mind meld with Pike. It isn't just cold death, any more. He knows Kirk is suffering, and can do nothing but watch.

It also isn't grief over what was, it's grief over what won't be. Spock realizes what genuine friendship is about for the first time as Kirk is dying. In TWOK, the dying Spock professed he always had been Kirk's friend, something he may have never been so explicit about, before. In STID, Kirk tells Spock he is his friend, which is why he was willing to risk breaking the Prime Directive in order to save him. Spock now realizes this, but he can't save Kirk.

I'm also sure Spock didn't forget what Spock Prime told him in ST09 about Kirk and Spock needing each other and about all they could accomplish together, and how each would help define the other in amazing ways. And then it all comes to an end prematurely because of Khan. A future ruined. Wouldn't that case even the most stoic person to erupt?

All that combined with the fact that Vulcans are much more emotional that humans underneath all that logic-veneer and you get "KHAAAAANNN!!!!!!1!!!11!!!1!!!!!!!!!!!"

I just see justifications on explaining away the Khan yell. Which is fine, it's the mindset the writers went into the movie with... how can we get Quinto to yell Khan? Forbid he did something original and defining all on his own instead of crawling further into Shatner and Nimoy's shadows.

Okay. Whatever.

Dramatically this scene/yell works better here than the original in TWOK where Khan reacts with almost orgasmic pleasure.

 

[SeerSGB]

At times it feels like the movie is either self parody or badly written fan fiction.

Nah, that honour goes to "Star Trek V: The Final Frontier".

With Generations and Nemesis close ties for first.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

At times it feels like the movie is either self parody or badly written fan fiction.

Nah, that honour goes to "Star Trek V: The Final Frontier".

With Generations and Nemesis close ties for first.

I'd say half of the film series, maybe a little more.

 

[Franklin]

Someone has to say it: It all sucks. Let's close up shop and go home.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

"Space Seed" is better than any of the films.

*drops mic*

 

[BigJake]

I just have to say, anyone who thinks Khan goes over the top in ID really, really needs to watch TWoK again.

Did so just recently, actually. Montalban's performance in TWoK is larger-than-life but consistent, and all of a piece; Khan as conceived by STiD alternates a bit awkwardly between laser-focused badass and brief flashes of scenery-munching UberEvil. I feel like direction was the problem there, Cumberbatch is certainly himself capable in theory of matching up with Montalban scene-for-scene if he was asked to.

 

[JarodRussell]

I love Montalban's performance in TWOK.

"In my judgment, you simply have no alternative." Smirk.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

I really got nothing from Cumberbatch in this one. It's like the filmmakers thought "you have a spooky voice, let's go with that!"

 

[BillJ]

I love Montalban's performance in TWOK.

"In my judgment, you simply have no alternative." Smirk.

I liked both performances.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

My favorite Khan is Space Seed. Subtle, nuanced, insane.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I just have to say, anyone who thinks Khan goes over the top in ID really, really needs to watch TWoK again.

Going over the top is what Khan's all about. At least, it is once you've pissed him off.

I actually think Khan was only playing nice in Space Seed because he needed the crew to operate the Enterprise, if he could have done it without them he probably would have just killed everyone.

Which I think makes Into Darkness a nice companion piece to Space Seed by showing that a Khan who knew everything he need to to run a federation starship and doesn't have any reason what so ever to play nice with the Enterprise crew can be a pretty ruthless bastard.

 

[BigJake]

I actually think Khan was only playing nice in Space Seed because he needed the crew to operate the Enterprise, if he could have done it without them he probably would have just killed everyone.

Anything is possible, but Space Seed does not really give us any reason to believe this and several reasons to believe the opposite. It mostly presents Khan as someone who is driven to dominate, and thrives on dominating, "lesser" breeds of men. Simply killing everyone would deprive him of an opportunity to do so, and if he in fact was a character who got off on just killing everyone his relationship with McGivers -- and his choice to sustain it even after she'd ceased to be of use -- would make no sense.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

Or, he revealed his name as if he is a very proud warrior finally unshackled from his ordeal under Marcus. He's full of himself. He knows he's formidable. People were once in awe of him. When he says his name, he probably even feels in awe of himself.

See what I did there? A valid explanation within the theme and context of the character that works just as well as believing it was a shallow inside joke by hack writers.

Thinking about it, it's more plausible than Kirk and company discovering one of the despots leading half of the world for decades in Space Seed and having no idea who he is. Even more so when the crew later acknowledge he was their favourite among the despots.

Harrison: My name is.... NAPOLEON!
Kirk: [blank stare] Who?... Look, I don't really care what's your name, hon, tell me why DID YOU KILL CHRISTOPHER YOU SON OF A BITCH

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I wonder if there is a blooper reel somewhere where he says.. My name is.. SHERLOCK.

 

[Maurice]

McCoy broke the fourth wall at the end of "Journey to Babel" - looking directly into the camera and saying, "Whaddya know, I finally got the last word!"

No he didn't. His eyeline is slightly to camera right.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

He's just breaking the fifth wall by talking to that invisible guy sitting next to you.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

McCoy broke the fourth wall at the end of "Journey to Babel" - looking directly into the camera and saying, "Whaddya know, I finally got the last word!"

No he didn't. His eyeline is slightly to camera right.

Accordingly, I've read that this sort of thing is referred to as leaning on the fourth wall, not breaking it.