Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Wasn't that a fairly common stylistic thing to do in the 60's?

 

[Yanks]

You seem to have missed that whole conversation in the shuttle on the way to Kronos.
The writers have their character explain here exactly why he snaps later on.

So, yes, "that" (the death of a colleague and friend with whom Spock worked for quite a while at that point) was the drop that..., the hair that...

I missed something? OK, I just skip parts of the movie because I want to hate something.

His mind-meld with the dying Pike is also meant to put another piece in place. The argument the script makes for that moment is actually set out fairly clearly, whether or not one finds the pieces of it believable in themselves or the whole congenial.

I can understand the intended link there. Spock gets to "experience" Pikes death so he'll "feel" what Kirk is going through later.

That and -- .

In ST09 he damned near kills Kirk as all his pent-up emotions over the death of his mother come out all at once.

Yup, already had the release for that one, and the loss of his planet.

It also isn't grief over what was, it's grief over what won't be. Spock realizes what genuine friendship is about for the first time as Kirk is dying. In TWOK, the dying Spock professed he always had been Kirk's friend, something he may have never been so explicit about, before. In STID, Kirk tells Spock he is his friend, which is why he was willing to risk breaking the Prime Directive in order to save him. Spock now realizes the value of friendship, but he can't save Kirk.

OK, now they are friends. From Spock's perspective for about what, 8 months?

I'm also sure Spock didn't forget what Spock Prime told him in ST09 about Kirk and Spock needing each other and about all they could accomplish together, and how each would help define the other in amazing ways. And then it all comes to an end prematurely because of Khan. Wouldn't that cause even the most stoic person to erupt?

Not Spock, well not the Spock I know.

I just see justifications on explaining away the Khan yell. Which is fine, it's the mindset the writers went into the movie with... how can we get Quinto to yell Khan? Forbid he did something original and defining all on his own instead of crawling further into Shatner and Nimoy's shadows.

What I see is that trek for these writers is just a frellin fan-boy play-ground.

It seems they aren't very knowledgable fan-boys at that. First makeing Delta Vega a moon around Vulcan and now thinking Kirk yelling Khan was ever very good writing.

Suitcase sized transwarp WTF...

He's only in their shadows if you put him there. I guess he could've yelled, "SIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNGGGHHH!"

The point is he shouldn't have yelled anything. He lost his mother and his planet and he was emotionally compromised to the point of rage (egged on by Kirk). He didn't get all boohoo and cry a river.

Kirk's yell was embarrassingly silly, emotive, and out of place in TWOK. It was a take-me-out-of-the-movie laugh out loud moment the first time I saw it. Totally stupid. Spock's yell was heartfelt, sincere, and entirely appropriate in STID. I'd think the writers knew where they were going other than just wanting to throw it in.

Now to me, Spock's yell was stupid. Almost laughable in the theater. (I probably would have laughed had I not been slapping my forehead)

I love Montalban's performance in TWOK.

"In my judgment, you simply have no alternative." Smirk.

I liked both performances.

I agree. Montalban's performance was legendary both in TWoK & Space Seed.

.. and Cumby's perfromance was outstanding as well. He was given a really tough part and knocked it out of the park.

------------------------------------------------------------

But we have these little debates over something that didn't need to be.

What the ending of the movie could have been was Scotty says the same line to Spock on the bridge (a nod to TWoK, not plagiarism), but when Spock gets down there Kirk is outside the core and Bones tells Spock something like, “good thing he took his anti-radiation shot … he will take some time to recover, but he’ll live…” Then while Kirk lays there, with little to no energy, he – straining – whispers and tells Spock “the needs of the many Spock, Khan was a pawn too… you've got to stop him”. (or something to that effect)

Then we can still have the run-a-thon, Spock captures Khan and doesn't kill him because it's the right thing to do, not because we need his blood to save Kirk.

 

[BillJ]

Yup, already had the release for that one, and the loss of his planet.

You really don't understand emotion. Just because he had an outburst doesn't mean he's forever cured from having emotional reactions because of it.

For Spock, we're continuing to see the cumulative effects of emotion on a being that simply has issues handling it.

 

[Yanks]

Yup, already had the release for that one, and the loss of his planet.

You really don't understand emotion. Just because he had an outburst doesn't mean he's forever cured from having emotional reactions because of it.

For Spock, we're continuing to see the cumulative effects of emotion on a being that simply has issues handling it.

You can see it that way, that's fine.

But remember, Kirk had to make Spock lose control in ST09. We didn't see any indication of Spock being "compromised" until he was prodded by Kirk. So Spock was capable of dealing with all that loss.

That would indicate that this "event" would pale in comparison.

Which means the tears, yelling "Khan" and taking off on a rampage with the full intent of killing Khan is totally out of character for nuSpock.

 

[BillJ]

Which means the tears, yelling "Khan" and taking off on a rampage with the full intent of killing Khan is totally out of character for nuSpock.

I think it's quite in character for both versions of the character at that stage of their lives. People seem to forget (intentionally or not, I'm not sure) that Spock wasn't always a cold, logical machine in TOS. People seem to want Spock to be this static character that never changes and it really doesn't fit what we've seen of him over the past five decades. We're simply getting a more compressed version of the journey do to the limitations of feature films.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Spock Prime wept for V'ger in TMP. He even had an attack of the lolz and wrestled with Kirk in the water at the end of STIV. I think he's allowed to cry when Person Close To Him #453 dies in the alternate universe.

 

[Yanks]

Which means the tears, yelling "Khan" and taking off on a rampage with the full intent of killing Khan is totally out of character for nuSpock.

I think it's quite in character for both versions of the character at that stage of their lives. People seem to forget (intentionally or not, I'm not sure) that Spock wasn't always a cold, logical machine in TOS. People seem to want Spock to be this static character that never changes and it really doesn't fit what we've seen of him over the past five decades. We're simply getting a more compressed version of the journey do to the limitations of feature films.

I think that's a BIG stretch going back to The Cage. The writers and Nimoy didn't even know the character then.

You don't have to be a "logical machine" to understand and show the restraint necessary to capture Khan not kill him. He is an experienced Star Fleet Commander you know.

Spock Prime wept for V'ger in TMP. He even had an attack of the lolz and wrestled with Kirk in the water at the end of STIV. I think he's allowed to cry when Person Close To Him #453 dies in the alternate universe.

"Boohoo, I think I'm losing a friend" pales in comparision to this deep meaningful exchange about discovering one's self and the purpose of existence.

...and remember Spock has not achieved Kolinahr and goes to Enterprise not because Kirk wants him to, but to find answers.

SPOCK: No, Captain, not for us, ...for V'Ger. ...I weep for V'Ger, as I would for a brother. As I was when I came aboard, so is V'Ger now, empty, incomplete, ...searching. Logic and knowledge are not enough.
McCOY: Spock, are you saying that you've found, what you needed, but V'Ger hasn't?
DECKER: What would V'Ger need to fulfil itself?
SPOCK: Each of us, at some time in our life, turns to someone, a father, a brother, a god and asks 'Why am I here?' 'What was I meant to be?' V'Ger hopes to touch its Creator to find its answers.
KIRK: 'Is this all that I am? Is there nothing more?'

#453?

 

[BigJake]

Thinking about it, it's more plausible than Kirk and company discovering one of the despots leading half of the world for decades in Space Seed and having no idea who he is. Even more so when the crew later acknowledge he was their favourite among the despots.

You know, it's really annoying when people become so obsessed with defending some silly random NuTrek trope that they're willing to actively dump on things that TOS (or other incarnations of the franchise) got right. This has got to stop.

Space Seed played the reveal of Khan correctly and quite proficiently; he was famous enough by their time to be in the historical records, but also foreign enough to not be the sort of figure every American (sorry "Earth") schoolboy learned about, and too far in their past to be instantly recognizable on sight... unless you're an historian. The way this aspect of the episode plays out is entirely believable and well-handled in the setting, in part because Khan himself is canny enough to work out that they don't recognize him and use that to his advantage, not revealing his identity until he's forced to.

Now, you could argue that Khan in STiD was meant to be trying to manipulate the situation to his advantage by the reveal of his identity -- and by undermining Marcus' credibility in so doing -- in a somewhat similar way. But he would be no more likely to do so by sheer name recognition than an ancient non-Western tyrant emerging from stasis today could (or if he was smart, would) expect to confront a group of American naval officers and give them chills by saying: "My name is Jiaqing." Or: "My name is Ali Shah Qajar." Or: "My name is Adandozan" and so on. (And the scene clearly does have Kirk recognizing his name -- not only does Pike play the grim reaction nicely, but it's after the name reveal that Kirk identifies him as a "three-hundred-year-old frozen man," he hadn't mentioned the length of time himself.)

It's another one of those things that you can kind of handwave an explanation for and that's fine, but one should not go trying to compare it favorably to examples of the old franchise that in fact did it better. That is a warp factor too far.

 

[BillJ]

I think that's a BIG stretch going back to The Cage. The writers and Nimoy didn't even know the character then.

Then what do you count? Do we not count Where No Man... or The Corbomite Maneuver where he does openly smile? Do we not count all the episodes where Spock smirks or shows other emotions? Do we not count Enterprise since their Vulcans don't seem to match up with the ideal version of Vulcan that Spock feeds us through TOS? Do we not count Captain Solok from Take Me Out to the Holosuite? Because he's one of the smuggest bastards I've ever seen.

Do we write off the Modern Trek pilots when discussing those characters?

The only reason you said the above is because it simply doesn't fit with your argument. Guess what? The way Spock was written in TOS, was that he tried to maintain cool over a bubbling cauldron of emotion.

"Boohoo, I think I'm losing a friend" pales in comparision to this deep meaningful exchange about discovering one's self and the purpose of existence.

I take it you've never really faced death?

 

[Yanks]

You know, it's really annoying when people become so obsessed with defending some silly random NuTrek trope that they're willing to actively dump on things that TOS (or other incarnations of the franchise) got right. This has got to stop.

Space Seed played the reveal of Khan correctly and quite proficiently; he was famous enough by their time to be in the historical records, but also foreign enough to not be the sort of figure every American (sorry "Earth") schoolboy learned about, and too far in their past to be instantly recognizable on sight... unless you're an historian. The way this aspect of the episode plays out is entirely believable and well-handled in the setting, in part because Khan himself is canny enough to work out that they don't recognize him and use that to his advantage, not revealing his identity until he's forced to.

I would agree with this sediment. But one must have their facts straight no matter what "side" they are on.

For instance.... Khan reveals himself to Kirk the first time they speak. After Khan decides not to kill Bones, Kirk is the first one Khan spoke to.

KIRK: Seventy two of your life-support canisters are still functioning.
KHAN: You will revive them.
KIRK: As soon as we reach Starbase Twelve.
KHAN: I see.
KIRK: And now
KHAN: Khan is my name.
KIRK: Khan. Nothing else?
KHAN: Khan.

The very next scene Spock figures out that there are some missing "supermen" from the history books, and then Khan clearly expresses himself and his opinions/feelings at dinner.

So I fail to see how any of this demonstrates Khan revealing himself to his advantage.

Now, you could argue that Khan in STiD was meant to be trying to manipulate the situation to his advantage by the reveal of his identity -- and by undermining Marcus' credibility in so doing -- in a somewhat similar way. But he would be no more likely to do so by sheer name recognition than an ancient non-Western tyrant emerging from stasis today could (or if he was smart, would) expect to confront a group of American naval officers and give them chills by saying: "My name is Jiaqing." Or: "My name is Ali Shah Qajar." Or: "My name is Adandozan" and so on. (And the scene clearly does have Kirk recognizing his name -- not only does Pike play the grim reaction nicely, but it's after the name reveal that Kirk identifies him as a "three-hundred-year-old frozen man," he hadn't mentioned the length of time himself.)

nuKhan gave nuKirk much more than "name recognition":

James T. Kirk: Why is there a man in that torpedo?
Khan: There are men and women in all those torpedoes, Captain. I put them there.
James T. Kirk: Who the hell are you?
Khan: A remnant of a time long past. Genetically engineered to be superior so as to lead others to peace in a world at war. But we were condemned as criminals, forced into exile. For centuries we slept, hoping when we awoke things would be different. But as a result of the destruction of Vulcan your Starfleet begun to aggressively search distant quadrants of space. My ship was found adrift. I alone was revived.
James T. Kirk: I looked up John Harrison. Until a year ago he didn't exist.
Khan: John Harrison was a fiction created the moment I was awoken by your Admiral Marcus to help him advance his cause, a smokescreen to conceal my true identity. My name is... KHAN.

Hell, nuKirk is a smart guy, all he would need to hear is "genetically engineered" and "world at war" to understand the timeframe of the Eugenics Wars. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to make that connection and do some simple math.

It's another one of those things that you can kind of handwave an explanation for and that's fine, but one should not go trying to compare it favorably to examples of the old franchise that in fact did it better. That is a warp factor too far.

Don't see any handwaving in YellowSubmarine's post or position.

I see much JJ hate and TOS gushing in yours.

 

[Yanks]

I think that's a BIG stretch going back to The Cage. The writers and Nimoy didn't even know the character then.

Then what do you count? Do we not count Where No Man... or The Corbomite Maneuver where he does openly smile? Do we not count all the episodes where Spock smirks or shows other emotions? Do we not count Enterprise since their Vulcans don't seem to match up with the ideal version of Vulcan that Spock feeds us through TOS? Do we not count Captain Solok from Take Me Out to the Holosuite? Because he's one of the smuggest bastards I've ever seen.

You are intentionally muddying the waters in a failed attempt to justify nuSpocks clearly un-Spock-like actions.

There are no surviving 1/2 Human 1/2 Vulcan characters in Enterprise. Spock smiling or smirking is not losing it, balling and running off on a killing spree.

Do we write off the Modern Trek pilots when discussing those characters?

What? I have no idea what you could possibly be relating to this conversation here.

The only reason you said the above is because it simply doesn't fit with your argument. Guess what? The way Spock was written in TOS, was that he tried to maintain cool over a bubbling cauldron of emotion.

Sure, and he normally was most successful. The only time we saw the "rage" in Spock(prime) was during Amok time.

I list references because they support my argument.

"Boohoo, I think I'm losing a friend" pales in comparision to this deep meaningful exchange about discovering one's self and the purpose of existence.

I take it you've never really faced death?

As a 1/2 Vulcan, 1/2 human? .... no. You?

 

[BigJake]

Khan reveals himself to Kirk the first time they speak.

He reveals only that his name is "Khan." Which is like a North American revealing that his name is "Smith," it's an extremely common South Asian name. That's why he's able to claim that he was once "an engineer of sorts" and they don't recognize him as Khan Noonien Singh the dictator until afterwards.

(And yes, it's a bit bizarre that they actually give him access to their technical library in the interim - I'm not saying the whole Episode is perfect. Just that the aspect of the reveal is played correctly, and it's not "TOS gushing" to say otherwise.)

all he would need to hear is "genetically engineered" and "world at war" to understand the timeframe of the Eugenics Wars. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to make that connection and do some simple math.

Okay, fair enough.

 

[beamMe]

You are intentionally muddying the waters in a failed attempt to justify nuSpocks clearly un-Spock-like actions.

Of course Quinto's Spock acts and reacts differently than Nimoy's Spock. One experienced the death of his homeplanet and his mother at a young age, the other one didn't.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Spock Prime wept for V'ger in TMP. He even had an attack of the lolz and wrestled with Kirk in the water at the end of STIV. I think he's allowed to cry when Person Close To Him #453 dies in the alternate universe.

"Boohoo, I think I'm losing a friend" pales in comparision to this deep meaningful exchange about discovering one's self and the purpose of existence.

So I take it you've never lost anyone close to you?

 

[Yanks]

Khan reveals himself to Kirk the first time they speak.

He reveals only that his name is "Khan." Which is like a North American revealing that his name is "Smith," it's an extremely common South Asian name. That's why he's able to claim that he was once "an engineer of sorts" and they don't recognize him as Khan Noonien Singh the dictator until afterwards.

(And yes, it's a bit bizarre that they actually give him access to their technical library in the interim - I'm not saying the whole Episode is perfect. Just that the aspect of the reveal is played correctly, and it's not "TOS gushing" to say otherwise.)

I do think that ep is perfect. From what Kirk knew, why not do what he can to help Khan adjust to a new time?

Break.... not perfect...

Marla's whole presense is just, well .... pretty demeaning to women as professionals. But that's pretty standard for the 60's. Uhura was just eye candy in that regard.

You are intentionally muddying the waters in a failed attempt to justify nuSpocks clearly un-Spock-like actions.

Of course Quinto's Spock acts and reacts differently than Nimoy's Spock. One experienced the death of his homeplanet and his mother at a young age, the other one didn't.

True, no denying nuSpock has been run through the wringer.

My point is that he is still 1/2 Vulcan. Our nuSpock keeps getting written forgetting that.

I mean think about it. All that Spock(prime) went through throughout his life, did we ever see him go off on a hatefilled rampage? He saw Vulcan collapse, did he go nuts?

No, because his 1/2 Vulcan site knew he had to control it.

nuSpock has flipped twice.

I'm not just posting this to hate. My opinion of this movie has changed after seeing it a few times.

The first time I saw it, when Harrison revealed himself as Khan I got so pissed the rest of the movie just didn't matter.

I have grown to accept Harri-Khan, even with a white brit playing the part.

But I just can't get past the rip-off reversal and how Spock is being written.

Had they ended it - maybe as I posted earlier, this movie could be ranked #1 on my ST movie ranking list.

 

[Franklin]

OK, now they are friends. From Spock's perspective for about what, 8 months?

You're not the first to post that you thought Spock's response to Kirk's death was over the top because they really weren't friends for that long.

I gotta think people really don't mean that to be as cold as it sounds. Maybe they mean it in the context of Kirk's reaction to Spock's death in TWOK given they had known each other for so long. They say that in comparison, why is Spock so weepy over losing a captain he barely knew?

Still. Really? In life, how long does someone have to know a person, or how close do they have to be, before someone can be greatly affected by the person's death?

Cold. Really cold, in my opinion.

 

[beamMe]

True, no denying nuSpock has been run through the wringer.

My point is that he is still 1/2 Vulcan. Our nuSpock keeps getting written forgetting that.

I mean think about it. All that Spock(prime) went through throughout his life, did we ever see him go off on a hatefilled rampage? He saw Vulcan collapse, did he go nuts?

No, because his 1/2 Vulcan site knew he had to control it.

nuSpock has flipped twice.

Nimoy's Spock has already lived a very long and full life by the time he saw Vulcan die. The closest Nimoy's Spock came to the experience of Quinto's Spock was when the Intrepid was destroyed, and he was at least a decade older then.

Quinto's Spock is perfectly in line with everything we've always been told what Vulcans are like when they aren't in control of their emotional side.

 

[F. King Daniel]

My point is that he is still 1/2 Vulcan. Our nuSpock keeps getting written forgetting that.

I mean think about it. All that Spock(prime) went through throughout his life, did we ever see him go off on a hatefilled rampage? He saw Vulcan collapse, did he go nuts?

No, because his 1/2 Vulcan site knew he had to control it.

Think back to the ice cave after the mind meld, Kirk was in tears, to which Spock apologized, saying "emotional transference is a part of the mind meld"

Later in Scotty's shuttle, his voice is breaking when telling Kirk "I just lost my planet, I assure you I am emotionally compromised."

This from the original Spock, at 160+ years of age and maturity.

nuSpock has flipped twice.

A younger "Cage"-era Spock (smiling, "THE WOMEN!" etc) pushed over the edge would end up having emotional control issues which the version of him who didn't experience those things at that point in life wouldn't have.

 

[BillJ]

There are no surviving 1/2 Human 1/2 Vulcan characters in Enterprise. Spock smiling or smirking is not losing it, balling and running off on a killing spree.

There are also no half-human/half-vulcan's that we've seen lose their mother and their planet. So how do you know Spock's actions are out of sync with the character we saw in TOS?

I'll just let my argument stand on this note (since we can't count The Cage):

 

[BillJ]

A younger "Cage"-era Spock (smiling, "THE WOMEN!" etc) pushed over the edge would end up having emotional control issues which the version of him who didn't experience those things at that point in life wouldn't have.

If we think this through, obviously Spock thought he had emotional control issues or else he wouldn't have attempted Kolinahr to begin with.