Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

[Ovation]

No fourth wall was breached by any definition of the term I'm aware of. The scene wasn't a recreation of anything. It was it's own unique scene sharing only the coincidence that Kirk dies in a similar way to how Spock died in TWOK. As far as Spock's death scene in TWOK goes, I hate to say this, but I certainly don't see how it's iconic. Actually, I find it less heartfelt and less moving than Kirk's death scene in STID was. True feelings and emotions were expressed between Kirk and Spock in that scene. Kirk was scared. Spock was enraged. Emotions like that didn't happen in TWOK. I'm probably in a small minority on that, but there it is.

You're not alone. I find the scene in STID far more compellingly acted (and I find Spock's scream much more appropriate in-story than Kirk's in TWOK). And lest anyone think I'm some sort of newbie--been watching Trek since 1973 (when it was on WLVI-56 out of Boston on Saturday nights).

The 4th wall was almost breached when Cumberbatch revealed himself as Khan. Like he expected them to know him because they saw Space Seed and TWOK.

yeah, that as well. I felt he just told the audience an inside joke. we the audience knew who khan was when the characters themselves aka Kirk and Spock did not know him...lol.

Or, he revealed his name as if he is a very proud warrior finally unshackled from his ordeal under Marcus. He's full of himself. He knows he's formidable. People were once in awe of him. When he says his name, he probably even feels in awe of himself.

See what I did there? A valid explanation within the theme and context of the character that works just as well as believing it was a shallow inside joke by hack writers.

Curse you for not accepting that the writers of Abrams' Trek films are talentless hacks who clearly know nothing of the essence of "true Trek".

 

[M'Sharak]

In the scene where Chris and Zach re-act the famous goodbye and death scene from wrath of khan, did anybody else feel they broke character when they were acting?

I just rewatched the film on DVD and for some weird reason when I was watching Kirk's death scene, I did not see Kirk and Spock , I saw Chris and Zach trying to act out a scene from a past Star Trek film.

When Kirk put his hand on the glass. I felt like the Director just yelled AAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNDDDDDDDD ACTION and Chris Pine put his hand on the glass to do the Vulcan salute. I just did not see Kirk in that scene. I saw Chris Pine trying to be William Shatner's Kirk.


I know most people say the Khan yell was too much, If I where to say Quinto was paying homage to Shatner that will be an understatement.


Perhaps this is one of the downside of trying to do a homage. Instead of you seeing the new characters in a familiar place like the reverse death scene or them repeating a famous dialogue like Quinto screaming KHANNNNNNNNN.

What you see is brand new actors trying to respectfully imitate a classic scene beloved by many.

The whole homage scene including the Khan scream was just too much. It broke the 4th wall for me and just reminded me that Star Trek is fiction.


I have no doubt that if the writers can go back in time. they will write the script differently.

Your post is sort of muddled, but nothing you describe fits the definition of "breaking the fourth wall"....

The 4th wall was almost breached when Cumberbatch revealed himself as Khan. Like he expected them to know him because they saw Space Seed and TWOK.

... nor does this.

[...]

A fine attempt as a JJ apologist and rationalizer. I see what you tried to do!

Do you suppose that point could have been made just as well without using a term like "JJ apologist"? It seems unnecessary.

 

[F. King Daniel]

No-one broke the fourth wall in Into Darkness, and I thought the reversed death scene was excellently done - right up until Spock yelled "KHAAAAAAN!" which was going a bit too far (it reminded me of the overdone uses of "Kneel before Zod!" in Smallville) - but even that didn't ruin it and was just about in character for this Spock, who when similarly pushed to his limit screamed (albeit wordlessly) when attacking the Vulcan bully at school and Kirk on the bridge in the last movie.

What detractors see as a "hackish rip-off" I see as an awesome alternate universe version of an event. It wasn't the end of the Kirk and Spock friendship as in WoK, it was Spock's realization of their friendship... just too late (or not, in both cases)

 

[BigJake]

(EDIT: The OP uses the term "fourth wall" but what I think Cara007 really means is "suspension of disbelief." If a scene pulls you out of immersion and reminds you that you're just watching a bunch of people on a set, what's being broken is your suspension of disbelief.)

I don't think the scene fails because either Pine or Quinto are "imitating" the older scene. Pine is still his own Kirk throughout it... and I do think Pine's Kirk is under-appreciated by too many, it takes serious chops to be recognizable as a version of the old character without impersonating Shatner. Quinto convincingly sells the level of fury it would take to break through Spock's reserve, and in terms of delivery he makes the "KHAAANN!" yell entirely his own. As a unit unto itself its reasonably well-directed and well-acted and well-shot. On that level I'll be honest, I enjoyed it.

Where the scene falls down is dramatically and structurally, because it isn't really earned. The TWoK scene it's calling back to was the culmination of not just a long screen relationship, but a long in-continuity relationship. You can sort of handwave and make a case that Pine and Kirk's Spock would have had time to develop similar bonds within a year, but it's harder to believe in realistic terms... and suspending disbelief that far effectively puts the scene in frame with old Trek and points up the fact that nuTrek has a Star Wars-style conception of relationships, in which the characters interact like they were always-already old buddies because the plot requires it and regardless of circumstance. (It also doesn't help its impact that we know right away they have to reverse Kirk's death, because there's no way they're not planning to have another movie.)

So I understand why so many people reacted to it the way they did. (And I have to agree with JarodRussell that the "Khan reveal" was pretty awful. Basically it looked like there were a couple of moments where Cumberbatch was directed to deliver Pure Awesome Eeeeevil -- "no ship should go down without her captain" was another -- and the result both times was awful mugging that seemed out of place with the rest of his performance. I was reminded a bit in the latter moment of the Emperor in ROTJ: "this fully-armed and operational Battle Station!")

 

[SeerSGB]

Or, he revealed his name as if he is a very proud warrior finally unshackled from his ordeal under Marcus. He's full of himself. He knows he's formidable. People were once in awe of him. When he says his name, he probably even feels in awe of himself.

See what I did there? A valid explanation within the theme and context of the character that works just as well as believing it was a shallow inside joke by hack writers.

A fine attempt as a JJ apologist and rationalizer. I see what you tried to do!

If Abrams had Cumberbatch turn straight into the camera, stare, and say, "My name, is Khan," to the audience in all his 3D glory, then the fourth wall would've been broken.

As far as further rationalization goes, here's a man who ruled nations. For the last year, he's probably never even said his real name out loud, certainly not to any other individual. Now, he's confessed his full past to Kirk and finally builds to revealing who he really is for the first time in a year. So, my next rationalization (I'd say plausible explanation) is he's saying it defiantly. It probably feels good to reveal himself and finally say his real name out loud openly and without fear, whether Kirk knows who he is or not.

However, I guess that couldn't have been an intent of the writers or director, as they apparently don't think that deeply.

That's the kind of read I got from the line. He's prideful, arrogant. To him, his name should matter, should cause awe and reverence cause he's Khan. Everyone knows Khan, everyone fears, Khan. It's a "do you know who you're fucking with?" moment.

 

[Yanks]

If Abrams had Cumberbatch turn straight into the camera, stare, and say, "My name, is Khan," to the audience in all his 3D glory, then the fourth wall would've been broken.

Harrison revealing himself as Khan was incredibly well done by Cumby.

I didn't want Khan in the movie at all and I thought Cumby hit it out of the park.

The guy was phenominal.

Or it could be that someone simply liked the movie and felt the scene worked?

Or do you consider yourself an "apologist" and "rationalizer" every time you like something someone else doesn't?

Yup, take it from an Enterprise fan. This is the worst part about chatting on mesage boards. Both Gushers & Haters trying to justify thier existence.

Spock is so out of character in this scene it's not funny.

Out of character with the Spock from the '09 film? - No.

Out of character with the Spock from TOS? Perhaps. But then... "THE WOMEN!"

I don't think so. Hell, in ST09 nuSpock loses his mother and his entire planet and doesn't break out and cry like a baby.

He loses someone he's been at odds with for 1/2 the time they've known each other and that puts him over the top?

No-one broke the fourth wall in Into Darkness, and I thought the reversed death scene was excellently done - right up until Spock yelled "KHAAAAAAN!" which was going a bit too far (it reminded me of the overdone uses of "Kneel before Zod!" in Smallville) - but even that didn't ruin it and was just about in character for this Spock, who when similarly pushed to his limit screamed (albeit wordlessly) when attacking the Vulcan bully at school and Kirk on the bridge in the last movie.

What detractors see as a "hackish rip-off" I see as an awesome alternate universe version of an event. It wasn't the end of the Kirk and Spock friendship as in WoK, it was Spock's realization of their friendship... just too late (or not, in both cases)

See that's the issue with me. I don't want "boy, how can we twist this situation seen in TOS or the TOS Movies" crap in our nuTrek.

I want some new stories and different situations to put our heroes through.

I will give a huge nod to Pine's acting though. He was very good, not only in this scene but throughout the entire movie.

 

[Yanks]

That's the kind of read I got from the line. He's prideful, arrogant. To him, his name should matter, should cause awe and reverence cause he's Khan. Everyone knows Khan, everyone fears, Khan. It's a "do you know who you're fucking with?" moment.

Folks seem to forget the rest of the "speech" to Kirk.

It's all explained, but, and myself was included in this the first time I saw the movie, I didn't "hear" the rest because I didn't want to. I was pissed.

I didn't want him to be Khan.

 

[R. Star]

I can buy an egotist who was infamous at one point on Earth's history with the whole Eugenics Wars things, spouting out his name as if he expected everyone to know it... not just the audience.

Oh and Yanks... if no one explained it to you, Breaking the Fourth Wall is basically when characters on a show talk directly to the audiences. Sitcoms will use it for comedic effect now and again.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I can buy an egotist who was infamous at one point on Earth's history with the whole Eugenics Wars things, spouting out his name as if he expected everyone to know it... not just the audience.

Oh and Yanks... if no one explained it to you, Breaking the Fourth Wall is basically when characters on a show talk directly to the audiences. Sitcoms will use it for comedic effect now and again.

McCoy broke the fourth wall at the end of "Journey to Babel" - looking directly into the camera and saying, "Whaddya know, I finally got the last word!"

 

[Yanks]

Oh and Yanks... if no one explained it to you, Breaking the Fourth Wall is basically when characters on a show talk directly to the audiences. Sitcoms will use it for comedic effect now and again.

Thanks. I saw M'Sharak's link too.

 

[Cara007]

Kirk and Spock were re-actng a scene done before. it was not original and the fact that it was not original is kind of breaking the 4th wall for me.

The khan scream goes further to break the 4th wall because Shatner had done it first.

It is obvious that the writers did not write Spock screaming khan out of rage, they wrote it because Shatner did it in WOK and they felt they needed to put that in Into Darkness in one way or another.





When you have all this in your head. you remember that you are watching a movie and the characters are not real. whih is why to me I felt the 4th wall was broken.

 

[Opus]

 

[beamMe]

Out of character with the Spock from the '09 film? - No.

Out of character with the Spock from TOS? Perhaps. But then... "THE WOMEN!"

I don't think so. Hell, in ST09 nuSpock loses his mother and his entire planet and doesn't break out and cry like a baby.

He loses someone he's been at odds with for 1/2 the time they've known each other and that puts him over the top?

You seem to have missed that whole conversation in the shuttle on the way to Kronos.
The writers have their character explain here exactly why he snaps later on.

So, yes, "that" (the death of a colleague and friend with whom Spock worked for quite a while at that point) was the drop that..., the hair that...

 

[BigJake]

So, yes, "that" (the death of a colleague and friend with whom Spock worked for quite a while at that point) was the drop that..., the hair that...

His mind-meld with the dying Pike is also meant to put another piece in place. The argument the script makes for that moment is actually set out fairly clearly, whether or not one finds the pieces of it believable in themselves or the whole congenial.

 

[Franklin]

Out of character with the Spock from the '09 film? - No.

Out of character with the Spock from TOS? Perhaps. But then... "THE WOMEN!"

I don't think so. Hell, in ST09 nuSpock loses his mother and his entire planet and doesn't break out and cry like a baby.

He loses someone he's been at odds with for 1/2 the time they've known each other and that puts him over the top?

You seem to have missed that whole conversation in the shuttle on the way to Kronos.
The writers have their character explain here exactly why he snaps later on.

So, yes, "that" (the death of a colleague and friend with whom Spock worked for quite a while at that point) was the drop that..., the hair that...

That and -- .

In ST09 he damned near kills Kirk as all his pent-up emotions over the death of his mother come out all at once.

In STID he knows what Kirk is going through because of his mind meld with Pike. It isn't just cold death, any more. He knows Kirk is suffering, and can do nothing but watch.

It also isn't grief over what was, it's grief over what won't be. Spock realizes what genuine friendship is about for the first time as Kirk is dying. In TWOK, the dying Spock professed he always had been Kirk's friend, something he may have never been so explicit about, before. In STID, Kirk tells Spock he is his friend, which is why he was willing to risk breaking the Prime Directive in order to save him. Spock now realizes the value of friendship, but he can't save Kirk.

I'm also sure Spock didn't forget what Spock Prime told him in ST09 about Kirk and Spock needing each other and about all they could accomplish together, and how each would help define the other in amazing ways. And then it all comes to an end prematurely because of Khan. Wouldn't that cause even the most stoic person to erupt?

 

[beamMe]

I don't think so. Hell, in ST09 nuSpock loses his mother and his entire planet and doesn't break out and cry like a baby.

He loses someone he's been at odds with for 1/2 the time they've known each other and that puts him over the top?

You seem to have missed that whole conversation in the shuttle on the way to Kronos.
The writers have their character explain here exactly why he snaps later on.

So, yes, "that" (the death of a colleague and friend with whom Spock worked for quite a while at that point) was the drop that..., the hair that...

In ST09 he damned near kills Kirk as all his pent-up emotions over the death of his mother come out all at once.

In STID he knows what Kirk is going through because of his mind meld with Pike. It isn't just cold death, any more. He knows Kirk is suffering, and can do nothing but watch.

It also isn't grief over what was, it's grief over what won't be. Spock realizes what genuine friendship is about for the first time as Kirk is dying. In TWOK, the dying Spock professed he always had been Kirk's friend, something he may have never been so explicit about, before. In STID, Kirk tells Spock he is his friend, which is why he was willing to risk breaking the Prime Directive in order to save him. Spock now realizes this, but he can't save Kirk.

I'm also sure Spock didn't forget what Spock Prime told him in ST09 about Kirk and Spock needing each other and about all they could accomplish together, and how each would help define the other in amazing ways. And then it all comes to an end prematurely because of Khan. A future ruined. Wouldn't that case even the most stoic person to erupt?

All that combined with the fact that Vulcans are much more emotional that humans underneath all that logic-veneer and you get "KHAAAAANNN!!!!!!1!!!11!!!1!!!!!!!!!!!"

 

[R. Star]

You seem to have missed that whole conversation in the shuttle on the way to Kronos.
The writers have their character explain here exactly why he snaps later on.

So, yes, "that" (the death of a colleague and friend with whom Spock worked for quite a while at that point) was the drop that..., the hair that...

In ST09 he damned near kills Kirk as all his pent-up emotions over the death of his mother come out all at once.

In STID he knows what Kirk is going through because of his mind meld with Pike. It isn't just cold death, any more. He knows Kirk is suffering, and can do nothing but watch.

It also isn't grief over what was, it's grief over what won't be. Spock realizes what genuine friendship is about for the first time as Kirk is dying. In TWOK, the dying Spock professed he always had been Kirk's friend, something he may have never been so explicit about, before. In STID, Kirk tells Spock he is his friend, which is why he was willing to risk breaking the Prime Directive in order to save him. Spock now realizes this, but he can't save Kirk.

I'm also sure Spock didn't forget what Spock Prime told him in ST09 about Kirk and Spock needing each other and about all they could accomplish together, and how each would help define the other in amazing ways. And then it all comes to an end prematurely because of Khan. A future ruined. Wouldn't that case even the most stoic person to erupt?

All that combined with the fact that Vulcans are much more emotional that humans underneath all that logic-veneer and you get "KHAAAAANNN!!!!!!1!!!11!!!1!!!!!!!!!!!"

I just see justifications on explaining away the Khan yell. Which is fine, it's the mindset the writers went into the movie with... how can we get Quinto to yell Khan? Forbid he did something original and defining all on his own instead of crawling further into Shatner and Nimoy's shadows.

 

[Franklin]

In ST09 he damned near kills Kirk as all his pent-up emotions over the death of his mother come out all at once.

In STID he knows what Kirk is going through because of his mind meld with Pike. It isn't just cold death, any more. He knows Kirk is suffering, and can do nothing but watch.

It also isn't grief over what was, it's grief over what won't be. Spock realizes what genuine friendship is about for the first time as Kirk is dying. In TWOK, the dying Spock professed he always had been Kirk's friend, something he may have never been so explicit about, before. In STID, Kirk tells Spock he is his friend, which is why he was willing to risk breaking the Prime Directive in order to save him. Spock now realizes this, but he can't save Kirk.

I'm also sure Spock didn't forget what Spock Prime told him in ST09 about Kirk and Spock needing each other and about all they could accomplish together, and how each would help define the other in amazing ways. And then it all comes to an end prematurely because of Khan. A future ruined. Wouldn't that case even the most stoic person to erupt?

All that combined with the fact that Vulcans are much more emotional that humans underneath all that logic-veneer and you get "KHAAAAANNN!!!!!!1!!!11!!!1!!!!!!!!!!!"

I just see justifications on explaining away the Khan yell. Which is fine, it's the mindset the writers went into the movie with... how can we get Quinto to yell Khan? Forbid he did something original and defining all on his own instead of crawling further into Shatner and Nimoy's shadows.

He's only in their shadows if you put him there. I guess he could've yelled, "SIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNGGGHHH!"

Kirk's yell was embarrassingly silly, emotive, and out of place in TWOK. It was a take-me-out-of-the-movie laugh out loud moment the first time I saw it. Totally stupid. Spock's yell was heartfelt, sincere, and entirely appropriate in STID. I'd think the writers knew where they were going other than just wanting to throw it in.

 

[M'Sharak]

Kirk and Spock were re-actng a scene done before. it was not original and the fact that it was not original is kind of breaking the 4th wall for me.

Nope. That's not what "breaking the fourth wall" means.

The khan scream goes further to break the 4th wall because Shatner had done it first.

That's not it, either.

It is obvious that the writers did not write Spock screaming khan out of rage, they wrote it because Shatner did it in WOK and they felt they needed to put that in Into Darkness in one way or another.



When you have all this in your head. you remember that you are watching a movie and the characters are not real. whih is why to me I felt the 4th wall was broken.

Still no.

You've latched onto a term used to describe a specific theatrical device and assigned it a different meaning. You may not have liked the scene—that is indeed within your prerogative as a viewer—but you shouldn't call it something it really isn't and expect that claim to be accepted without question.

 

[Therin of Andor]

At times it feels like the movie is either self parody or badly written fan fiction.

Nah, that honour goes to "Star Trek V: The Final Frontier".