Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 4x11 - "Rosetta"

[Mr Awe]

I will withhold judgement until the season is concluded. Right now this season feels like Daredevil did and I was not as invested midway through until the very end. Now, on rewatch, it is way better. So, until it is concluded I will wait and see.

You are welcome to criticize the execution. I just don't expect better. The writers have no incentive to do better.

That's fair to reevaluate on rewatching. I occasionally change my opinions based on a rewatch, but it usually is a small correction rather than a major change. YMMV.

I would expect writers to want to perfect their craft. Pretty shitty writers if they don't. Again, tell the story they want, just do it well.

I would offer The Expanse as a great counterpoint to what you say. That series isn't everyone's cup of tea to be sure. However, of the people who do watch, most say that the writing is generally top notch. Absolutely fantastic series with relative few detractors among those who watch. So, I think good writing can pay off by eliminating the obvious problems.

 

[fireproof78]

I would expect writers to want to perfect their craft. Pretty shitty writers if they don't. Again, tell the story they want, just do it well.

Sure, but that doesn't work with Discovery it seems. It seems they are driven to change everything in response to criticism. The result is, well, what we see in Season 4. Closer to TMP and VOY than what Discovery has done in the past. They are not perfecting their craft because they fear audience reaction.

Next season it will be 10 episodes and it will move at a fast pace.

I would offer The Expanse as a great counterpoint to what you say. That series isn't everyone's cup of tea to be sure. However, of the people who do watch, most say that the writing is generally top notch. Absolutely fantastic series with relative few detractors among those who watch. So, I think good writing can pay off by eliminating the obvious problems.

This isn't the Expanse.

 

[Fateor]

This season in particular is struggling to fill out a 13-episode order, much in the way the Marvel Netflix shows did.

I'm glad any seasons moving forward will only be 10 episodes, like Picard and Strange New Worlds and the animated shows.

Or... They could just hire better writers who can write a quality storyline that carries across the entire pre-determined episode number.

I know it's a stretch... But that seems much smarter idea then lower then episode count.

 

[fireproof78]

Or... They could just hire better writers who can write a quality storyline that carries across the entire pre-determined episode number.

Great idea! Who should they hire?

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Are the writers of The Expanse busy?

 

[fireproof78]

Are the writers of The Expanse busy?

Can they afford them?

 

[eschaton]

The Expanse isn't a good example to use, because the whole book series was already written. Yeah, they changed things (the character of Drummer in particular is a show creation, merging the stories of 3 secondary characters) but the hard work was done, with each season having 600-900 pages of book to crib.

Game of Thrones shows the difference well, IMHO. The first four seasons was just adapting GRRM's work, and lauded for its dialogue, characterization, and complex themes. Then they ran out of books and the show devolved into schlock, with characters no longer acting true to what was established, pointless subplots which just existed to keep the whole cast involved, dumb dialogue, and episodes which seemed to require teleportation to logically work.

It's just easier to do serialized drama if the rough draft was already written for you by an author.

 

[jackoverfull]

Apologies. It is the feeling that by calling something "real Trek" then the implication is there is fake Trek. If that isn't the point then why call something real Trek?

You are missing my point: I never talk in terms of “real trek” [or real music or anything actually), the whole real/fake debate is pointless to me.

Some might, most probably just refer to Picard or LDS A or whatever as “real trek” to mean they like it and you read too much in to that. Fact is that most people who didn’t like discovery probably couldn’t care less by now, and I can see that happening more and more if Picard and SNW keep being consistently liked.

My thought as well. If they established a definitive connection between the remains of the lifeforms on this planet and the 10-C I missed it. Seems speculative to me. I am thinking and hoping that we are in for a twist and the 10-C either destroyed this planet and wipe out its indigenous species or the 10-C constructed the hyperfield to hide from and/or protect itself from whatever did destroy that planet.

I’m sure they will be proven right (as always), but yeah, it doesn’t make any sense.

I was thinking about the Adira scenes, and you know what kinda rankles me?

The writers have apparently totally forgotten that they have a trill symbiont, and access to centuries worth of other people's memories. Like, the only story function of it was getting the connection "fixed" in Forget Me Not, and getting Gray out of it this season. The memories of the earlier hosts are never a help to them, nor do they provide any perspective. Worse, their characterization has regressed from being somewhat confident and mature to being a typical human teenager with limited life experience. There is absolutely nothing left in them as a character to make you think they are the first human with a trill symbiont inside.

Edit: Like in this episode they have a platonic crush on Detmer for being so confident and having grace under pressure. You mean to tell me Tal didn't have a single host who had those characteristics that Adira could draw upon?

thinking about it, you are totally right.

And I'm cool with the writers just ignoring it too. Time travel sucks. It is the ultimate reset button that should not be used

you are often pretty vocal on what “sucks”, yet time travel gave us some of the most beloved trek stories, as have the borg. As always, ideas are just tools, if you write your story well almost any idea con work. Time travel is interesting because it can put your regulars totally outside their routine, which can be used to great effect.

And scramble your brain.

Sounds healthy.

ah, right, technology for you is always evil.

What cracked me up was that apparently they have a setting for that. Ok, now filter out the other stuff. Voila, all fixed!

So, the EV suits can filter out unknown things, but the default setting is to block only the things in the Starfleet database!

Damn, more than 1000 years in the future and programmers still set default settings that don’t make sense for the end user!

They are well acted and SMG has vastly improved in my opinion

she was always really great (apart from the whispering, which was really a lot last season), some of her work in season 1 was truly fantastic (and I really didn’t like much of season 1).

until the end to meet the Wizard! They meet him ~mid way, he's unpredictable and a set of new actions occurs directly from that meet which our heroes have to take on and which leads to a resolution. Couldn't we have had a similar arc for 10C? Spore jumped in early (or traverse the wormhole), some sort of disaster occurs, but at least we're dealing with the issue at hand?

Had they at least tried to communicate with them and failed it would justify this unprecedented fixation on not being able to communicate.

And why did we ignore the Dyson rings - gee, MIGHT they have something relevant? They have much larger area than any planet and clearly show technological development?

I mean, dyson rings are a dime a dozens aren’t they? Look, a gas giant. With RUINS!

However, what I'm seeing here is an additional negative factor, bad writing. They clearly didn't have enough content for the full season. There are silly but distracting mistakes that pull me out of the story.

Pretty much. And instead of writing good standalone stories to fill the season they just dragged the main storyline to the ground, totally stopping the momentum and without telling much.

 

[fireproof78]

The Expanse isn't a good example to use, because the whole book series was already written

The Expanse is the greatest SF show ever written (according to what I have read. Have not seen it). So why not use that as a template for the failing Discovery?

 

[fireproof78]

Some might, most probably just refer to Picard or LDS A or whatever as “real trek” to mean they like it and you read too much in to that. Fact is that most people who didn’t like discovery probably couldn’t care less by now, and I can see that happening more and more if Picard and SNW keep being consistently liked.

I hope you are right.

you are often pretty vocal on what “sucks”, yet time travel gave us some of the most beloved trek stories, as have the borg. As always, ideas are just tools, if you write your story well almost any idea con work. Time travel is interesting because it can put your regulars totally outside their routine, which can be used to great effect.

Time travel is not interesting.

Sorry, it isn't. I do not find it appealing, and can count on one hand the number of time travel stories in Trek I like. Outside of Trek, it is down to 4.

ah, right, technology for you is always evil.

That's a very nice assumption. It's wrong, but it is very nice.

 

[eschaton]

The Expanse is the greatest SF show ever written (according to what I have read. Have not seen it). So why not use that as a template for the failing Discovery?

I began a serious answer to this, but pretty much everything you've been writing the past few days is light trolling, not sincere so...

 

[fireproof78]

I began a serious answer to this, but pretty much everything you've been writing the past few days is light trolling, not sincere so...

I'm sincerely asking? Why not hire an author, set up the series and move forward?

Accusing me of trolling is fine, but that's not the intent. So, if there is a problem my PM box is always open.

 

[jackoverfull]

Time travel is not interesting.

Sorry, it isn't. I do not find it appealing, and can count on one hand the number of time travel stories in Trek I like. Outside of Trek, it is down to 4.

Yet for many it is.

That's a very nice assumption. It's wrong, but it is very nice.

We’ll, you just assumed that a technology to read someone’s mind will inevitably “scramble” it.

Why not hire an author, set up the series and move forward?

beyond me. Straczynski had figured out more than 30 years ago that to do serialised storytelling well you need to have at least an outline of the story before beginning it, yet it still seem to elude many producers (o outside Star Trek, the sequel Star Wars trilogy is a perfect example of everything that can go wrong if you don’t plan ahead).

 

[eschaton]

I'm sincerely asking? Why not hire an author, set up the series and move forward?

Accusing me of trolling is fine, but that's not the intent. So, if there is a problem my PM box is always open.

I already explained why it's not feasible - there's no book series to crib from. Even with the same general themes/elements the dialogue went be as good and the characterization and world building will be lackluster in comparison.

I honestly can't think of a single serialized genre show which just winged it and was consistently good. Semi-seriaization seems to be the best that can be done.

 

[Krog]

So 10-C had Dyson spheres? Cool!

also why couldn’t Discovery jump past the galactic barrier? I missed the explanation

 

[Romulan_spy]

also why couldn’t Discovery jump past the galactic barrier? I missed the explanation

Something about the mycellium network being too thin in the galactic barrier due to the negative energy in the barrier (I think).

Personally, I think it was a bit of a BS answer considering that S1 clearly established that the mycellium network exists everywhere and is like the connective tissue of the entire universe. I think the writers just wanted a reason to raise the tension and do the cool sequence of Discovery hiding in bubbles to get across the barrier. And the writers probably needed to delay Discovery making first contact with 10-C so they had to come up with a reason why Discovery can't just spore jump directly to where 10-C is.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

A really strong 8 for me. 10C seems to be really interesting species.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I've adjusted my expectations down after the past few episodes. I liked the memory/feeling dust and dyson rings(!!!!) around the star. And Reno not giving a single fuck that she's been kidnapped

But yeah... is this a deliberate slower pace or padded to hell and back? I really thought we'd get at least another 2 years before Trek became "content for the sake of content" a la some of those Marvel shows but I fear we're knocking on that door already.

I recall Alex Kurtzman saying "Discovery brings the look and feel of our Star Trek movies to television" - it did a decent job of that for the first two seasons. New talky feelings slow motion Discovery doesn't stand up.

 

[fireproof78]

I already explained why it's not feasible - there's no book series to crib from. Even with the same general themes/elements the dialogue went be as good and the characterization and world building will be lackluster in comparison.

I honestly can't think of a single serialized genre show which just winged it and was consistently good. Semi-seriaization seems to be the best that can be done.

And I asked the follow up question of hiring an author, creating that dialog, that book series, and moving forward with a series.

I think Stargate and Farascape did well, but they were not fully serialized. So you might be right that semi-serialization would be the best idea.

Yet for many it is.

Good for them. I am not one of them. I won't hold time travel up as some holy grail item of storytelling to be used willy nilly. It needs to be ignored or nerfed-hard.

We’ll, you just assumed that a technology to read someone’s mind will inevitably “scramble” it.

That's what is presented on Star Trek.

beyond me. Straczynski had figured out more than 30 years ago that to do serialised storytelling well you need to have at least an outline of the story before beginning it, yet it still seem to elude many producers (o outside Star Trek, the sequel Star Wars trilogy is a perfect example of everything that can go wrong if you don’t plan ahead).

The prequel triology as well demonstrated that a lack of planning hurts things too.

I don't know why it eludes these professionals.

 

[Mr Awe]

The Expanse isn't a good example to use, because the whole book series was already written.

That makes it a great example. Point being that great writing makes a difference.