Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 4x04 - "All Is Possible"

[Unimatrix Q]

"Very often"? I don't think so. The examples you cite don't constitute "very often". You're using revisionist history to justify bashing Burnham. And you're operating under the assumption that I actually think Burnham is "always right". That's why I used quotations. She royally fucked up in "Battle at the Binary Stars".

I've watched TV for 40 years. The show in question always favors the main character. Even in a show like Breaking Bad where what he's doing is legally wrong, the narrative wants you take Walter White's side anyway. Or, if you haven't seen that series, then Bonnie & Clyde. You're on Bonnie and Clyde's side while you're watching that movie, even though what they're doing is breaking the law, because you're in it for the ride with them, while you're watching the film.

Exactly, and with the exception of Sisko (Maquis planet) and Janeway(Tuvix), neither of the previous main characters ever did anything that really tarnished his/her reputation and were almost always proven right at the end of the episodes.

 

[nic3636]

Exactly, and with the exception of Sisko (Maquis planet) and Janeway(Tuvix), neither of the previous main characters ever did anything that really tarnished his/her reputation and were almost always proven right at the end of the episodes.

Janeway was very reckless and screwed up a number of times and Archer was a bumbling fool. But to your point I don’t ever remember Sisko or Picard ever seriously screwing up.

 

[nic3636]

Some examples for Janeway:
- Gave holo deck technology to the Hirogen in The Killing Game which ended up having consequences they did a 2-episode arc about
- Awakened an evil race in Dragon's Teeth
- Formed an alliance with the Borg against 8472 which turned out to be a benevolent race and had an adverse impact on other races being assimilated which they did an episode about.
- Her resolution to Year of Hell was later portrayed as making a huge mess someone else had to clean up
- Determined to handle the situation alone in Omega Directive but later convinced by Chakotay to let the crew help
- Very poor leadership in "Night" which was acknowledged as such
- Even the finale is really all about Janeway's self perceived mistakes

That's just off the top of my head, I could probably think of some others.

And I'm not saying this because I think Burnham is right too often. The writers can make her always walk on water like Kirk/Picard/Sisko or more flawed like Janeway/Archer. I'm fine with either approach. I just wanted to point out that at least in Trek, the main character isn't always portrayed as being right all the time.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

About this episode:

I am curious why Adira has that globe with a model of the NX-01 Enterprise in it. I wonder what the connection could be. Perhaps Adira had an ancestor who served there?

 

[Paul755]

Janeway was very reckless and screwed up a number of times and Archer was a bumbling fool. But to your point I don’t ever remember Sisko or Picard ever seriously screwing up.

“bumbling fool” is pretty harsh on Archer and not really all that accurate at all.

Some examples for Janeway:
- Awakened an evil race in Dragon's Teeth

Caught this episode on H&I recently and this one is on 7 of 9 not Janeway.

 

[Paul755]

About this episode:

I am curious why Adira has that globe with a model of the NX-01 Enterprise in it. I wonder what the connection could be. Perhaps Adira had an ancestor who served there?

Tilly is shown with it earlier in the episode. Looks like she gave it to Adira as a going away gift.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Hmmm. Maybe Tilly is a descendant of a NX-01 crewmember, then? Or she could just be a big Archer fan.

Pity we'll most likely never find out, unless it pops up in a Short Trek or something.

 

[Paul755]

Tilly could just be a really big fan of Archer considering she is only 100 years or so removed from his time and he was probably still alive when she was growing up.

that is the 2nd ENT callback this season. Wonder if it’s a nod to the 20th anniversary or if it’s foreshadowing something. Like maybe the christening of a new USS Enterprise.

 

[nic3636]

“bumbling fool” is pretty harsh on Archer and not really all that accurate at all.

It might have to do with my perception of Archer rather than how he was intended to be portrayed. I just always viewed him as completely unqualified, he seemed to be coasting through Starfleet on the coat tails of his father's success and he never seemed to know what was going on. Whenever a situation arose he always looked confused and needed everything explained to him (maybe that isn't what was happening but that's how I remember it). Maybe someday I will re-watch ENT to confirm but Archer is my least favorite captain by far so it's not likely.

Caught this episode on H&I recently and this one is on 7 of 9 not Janeway.

Yes the episode intended the mistake to be Seven's mistake but it was very clearly Janeway's ultimate responsibility. Seven woke up that one person without asking but Janeway signed off on waking up everyone else. Which makes Janeway's lecture to Seven at the end of the episode all the more ironic.

 

[Lord Garth]

Some examples for Janeway:
- Gave holo deck technology to the Hirogen in The Killing Game which ended up having consequences they did a 2-episode arc about
- Awakened an evil race in Dragon's Teeth
- Formed an alliance with the Borg against 8472 which turned out to be a benevolent race and had an adverse impact on other races being assimilated which they did an episode about.
- Her resolution to Year of Hell was later portrayed as making a huge mess someone else had to clean up
- Determined to handle the situation alone in Omega Directive but later convinced by Chakotay to let the crew help
- Very poor leadership in "Night" which was acknowledged as such
- Even the finale is really all about Janeway's self perceived mistakes

That's just off the top of my head, I could probably think of some others.

And I'm not saying this because I think Burnham is right too often. The writers can make her always walk on water like Kirk/Picard/Sisko or more flawed like Janeway/Archer. I'm fine with either approach. I just wanted to point out that at least in Trek, the main character isn't always portrayed as being right all the time.

VOY and ENT aren't my strong suits.

But, even still that accounts for less than 10% of the series, even with more examples. 9 times out of 10 isn't bad. And definitely more of a leash than "STD Sucks!" types will give Burnham.

 

[Paul755]

It might have to do with my perception of Archer rather than how he was intended to be portrayed. I just always viewed him as completely unqualified, he seemed to be coasting through Starfleet on the coat tails of his father's success and he never seemed to know what was going on. Whenever a situation arose he always looked confused and needed everything explained to him (maybe that isn't what was happening but that's how I remember it). Maybe someday I will re-watch ENT to confirm but Archer is my least favorite captain by far so it's not likely.



Yes the episode intended the mistake to be Seven's mistake but it was very clearly Janeway's ultimate responsibility. Seven woke up that one person without asking but Janeway signed off on waking up everyone else. Which makes Janeway's lecture to Seven at the end of the episode all the more ironic.

I never saw that with Archer. In fact they point out in that S2 episode that Archer doesn’t get picked for the warp 2 ship even though “it’s your fathers engine”.

And yeah, ultimately Janeway is responsible, she is the Captain. But if Seven had waited…

 

[Lord Garth]

Another example of Burnham not always being right. She wasn't able to do what it took when it became clear that Airiam had been affected by Control. It took Nhan to flush her out the airlock.

Which, again, is why I only used "always right" in quotations. And that can also apply to Janeway.

 

[nic3636]

VOY and ENT aren't my strong suits.

But, even still that accounts for less than 10% of the series, even with more examples. 9 times out of 10 isn't bad. And definitely more of a leash than "STD Sucks!" types will give Burnham.

Well I'm certainly not trying to defend all the hate Burnham gets. I'm just pushing back against the idea that the main character has always been right in past Trek. That's usually true but not always true.

Janeway's mistakes being less than 10% of the series is not entirely fair. Most of the examples I gave weren't obscure episodes but some pretty significant plots during the series (2 episode arcs, season finales, etc.). Janeway was not portrayed as a bad captain overall but was pretty consistently portrayed as flawed. She was headstrong (borderline reckless) and often needed Chakotay to talk her off the ledge. It was a prevalent theme throughout the series they explored many many times. For what it's worth I really liked it, it gave her a distinct personality and helped drive a lot of the stories. IMO it's way more realistic and interesting than a character who is always right all the time.

 

[Paul755]

Another example of Burnham not always being right. She wasn't able to do what it took when it became clear that Airiam had been affected by Control. It took Nhan to flush her out the airlock.

Which, again, is why I only used "always right" in quotations. And that can also apply to Janeway.

thats not really a “Burnham being right” example though. Its Burnham not being able to make the tough choice.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

that is the 2nd ENT callback this season.

What was the first?

 

[cooleddie74]

The Archer Spacedock?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Crap, you're right, I forgot about that.

 

[Amaris]

Archer got a lot wrong during his time as Captain of Enterprise and that doesn't even include any idiotic mistakes or lapses in judgment he made during the unseen Earth-Romulan War. That said, yeah, since he was the series lead Scott Bakula wasn't going to be consistently depicted as the one guy in the room who didn't know what the Hell was going on.

I remembered having so much hope when I first heard news of the series. I adored Scott (still do!), and I was like "there's no way this is going to miss."

Damn.

 

[Fateor]

"Very often"? I don't think so. The examples you cite don't constitute "very often". You're using revisionist history to justify bashing Burnham. And you're operating under the assumption that I actually think Burnham is "always right". That's why I used quotations. Learn how to read between the lines. She royally fucked up in "Battle at the Binary Stars".

I've watched TV for 40 years. The show in question always favors the main character. Even in a show like Breaking Bad where what he's doing is legally wrong, the narrative wants you to take Walter White's side anyway. Or, if you haven't seen that series, then let's switch mediums and look at Bonnie & Clyde. You're on Bonnie and Clyde's side while you're watching that movie, even though what they're doing is breaking the law, because you're in it for the ride with them, as a viewer.

Do you really want me to list every single single time Picard and Sisko were wrong about a thing?

 

[Lord Garth]

Do you really want me to list every single single time Picard and Sisko were wrong about a thing?

Do it. Put your money where your mouth is.

"Go For It"

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Tear them down to build up your point. Bring down the rest of Star Trek because you can't stand DSC.

Do Admiral Norah Satie shame with the dirt you dig up compared to her. Make it so she'll want to compare notes with you. "I've brought down bigger men than you Picard!"