Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 3x12 - "There Is A Tide…"

[Lord Garth]

Not so sure about that.

Hmmmmm.

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Thinking about this...

... IIIIIIIIIII think I'd call it a tie. "Patterns of Force" had Ekosians becoming Nazis through the help and influence of John Gill. Gul Darheel was effectively a Nazi Leader in a Labor Camp without any help from an outside influence.

Like I said, "Duet" is naked about it, but "Patterns of Force" puts on the clothes including the uniform.

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I think you're not wrong. But I can go either way on it.

EDITED TO ADD: I think "Duet" goes into the atrocities in a way that "Patterns of Force" couldn't, because of what they could talk about in '90s TV versus '60s TV.

 

[Jinn]

And complimented:
GILL: Planet fragmented. Divided. Took lesson from Earth history.
KIRK: But why Nazi Germany? You studied history. You knew what the Nazis were.
GILL: Most efficient state Earth ever knew.
SPOCK: Quite true, Captain. That tiny country, beaten, bankrupt, defeated, rose in a few years to stand only one step away from global domination.
KIRK: But it was brutal, perverted, had to be destroyed at a terrible cost. Why that example?

God that episode sucked.

 

[NCC-73515]

God that episode sucked.

One big reason why it was banned from German TV for decades

 

[Jinn]

One big reason why it was banned from German TV for decades

Yeah, ZDF did get that one right

 

[Discofan]

God that episode sucked.

Big time! And Spock's assertion about Nazi Germany being efficient is total bullshit... I don't know who wrote this stuff but he was a history moron.

 

[137th Gebirg]

I think it was probably more of an over-generalization of stereotypical German efficiency, Naziism notwithstanding. Just ask any BMW owner.

 

[jackoverfull]

God that episode sucked.

I tend to agree...But my girlfriend had plenty of fun with it, so some might not!

One big reason why it was banned from German TV for decades

Nothing to do with showing nazi symbols on TV!

Big time! And Spock's assertion about Nazi Germany being efficient is total bullshit... I don't know who wrote this stuff but he was a history moron.

True. However, it as, sadly, a notion still believed by many uninformed people and, in defense to the writer, it was not that easy to get information back then.

In an ideal world they would have hired an history consultant, in the real one it probably went “we have a lot of nazi uniforms in storage, go and write an episode to use them by tomorrow. And while you’re at it do the same for the Roman costumes.”

 

[NCC-73515]

Nothing to do with showing nazi symbols on TV!

They are fine in TV unless they glorify the Nazis. The episode stated that Nazi Germany was the most efficient state ever (a very positive statement), and Spock said Kirk would make a convincing Nazi (a very strange joke). Those were the main reasons why it was banned, I think.

 

[Tim Thomason]

Orions, Andorians, what looks like several human factions, and who else?

Lurians, Cardassians, the Children of Mars species, Betelgeusians, Osnulli, Aaamazzarans, various other crazy aliens from the first episode, and they have territory in the Sigma Draconis system now, so Morgs and Eymorgs, possibly.

 

[jackoverfull]

They are fine in TV unless they glorify the Nazis. The episode stated that Nazi Germany was the most efficient state ever (a very positive statement), and Spock said Kirk would make a convincing Nazi (a very strange joke). Those were the main reasons why it was banned, I think.

weren't the rules much stricter until the 90s or so? I remember games such as Castle of Wolfenstain being heavily modified to remove all the nazi symbols in the German versions...

 

[NCC-73515]

weren't the rules much stricter until the 90s or so? I remember games such as Castle of Wolfenstain being heavily modified to remove all the nazi symbols in the German versions...

Games are a different issue, cause they're interactive. As soon as you have a multiplayer mode where you can play as a Nazi, it's gonna be an issue. Movies and TV shows that show the symbols, characters, etc. in their historic context are fine (like Schindler's List, etc.).

 

[cooleddie74]

And the Coridanites. Unless they're in opposition to the Emerald Chain and victims of it, but there could have been Coridanites working for Osyraa and her late nephew.

 

[jackoverfull]

Games are a different issue, cause they're interactive. As soon as you have a multiplayer mode where you can play as a Nazi, it's gonna be an issue. Movies and TV shows that show the symbols, characters, etc. in their historic context are fine (like Schindler's List, etc.).

interesting, but there was no multiplayer in wolfenstein until “Return” around 2001, yet they removed the nazi symbols for the German release.

Interesting also to point out that the nazi symbols were definitely not used in the historical setting in the TOS episode.

Here for some recent reference: https://edition.cnn.com/2018/08/10/europe/germany-video-games-nazi-symbols-intl/index.html

 

[Lord Garth]

In an ideal world they would have hired an history consultant, in the real one it probably went “we have a lot of nazi uniforms in storage, go and write an episode to use them by tomorrow. And while you’re at it do the same for the Roman costumes.”

Yup. Romans with Mid-20th Century technology to go with it. Saving the budget on two fronts.

One thing I like about the third season of TOS is that they went back to making the worlds more alien again. Even if it was obviously a soundstage. "Spectre of the Gun" and "The Paradise Syndrome" notwithstanding, because those were early episodes originally written with the second season budget and production values still in mind.

 

[cooleddie74]

The Melkotians were floating heads with dangling tentacles. THAT would be creepy and an impressive idea even in Modern Trek. TOS had budgetary restrictions but they found ways to expand the panoply of sci-fi aliens and in interesting ways when they tried.

 

[jackoverfull]

The Melkotians were floating heads with dangling tentacles. THAT would be creepy and an impressive idea even in Modern Trek.

always thought they were heads on a long neck, perhaps sentient apatosaurus!

But yes, they were impressive for the budget they were made on.

 

[cooleddie74]

TOS made the most of a limited effects budget and came up with some really cool aliens that still hold up.

 

[137th Gebirg]

I do think I’d like to see the Melkotians again on a modern budget. They already modernized the Tholians for Enterprise. Why the hell not?

 

[Lord Garth]

The Melkotians were floating heads with dangling tentacles. THAT would be creepy and an impressive idea even in Modern Trek. TOS had budgetary restrictions but they found ways to expand the panoply of sci-fi aliens and in interesting ways when they tried.

I meant more the original idea for the episode was they were going to shoot on-location on a western set. When they couldn't do that, they reworked the episode and that's how they came up with the idea for a set where all the locations were only partially built. I thought it was a creative work-around but it was a work-around for something else they'd had in mind.

But I love the look of the Melkotians. They probably would've had the same look even if "Spectre of the Gun" had a full-on boomtown.

 

[jackoverfull]

While I found that how they made the town in Spectre was very effective and unsettling, I wish they had polished the script a bit more: it makes no sense for Kirk & co to think they might really be in the past with all the oddities if the reconstruction.