Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 3x05 - "Die Trying"

[Yistaan]

Maybe just stripped of rank or something

Vance: Saru, I'm demoting you from Captain to Commander.

Saru: But I already was a commander. My being captain was an acting position.

Vance: Shhh... I need to look tough without actually doing anything harsh. It's called the Kirk demotion. Look up the whale probe incident of 2286.

 

[ananta]

Not a bad episode. Maybe a 7/8 for me. Little slow to get moving, but I was nonetheless hooked.

Beautiful sets and FX! Loving what we’re seeing of future tech and interested to see how it gets integrated into Discovery.

Michelle Yeoh continues to be a treasure and had great spark with David Cronenberg. Really interested to see where they take this. I was never excited about a Section 31 series, but heck, if it’s Yeoh and Cronenberg travelling the galaxy solving (and maybe committing) crimes, then sign me up now!

Nahn’s departure was surprising but didn’t warrant the emotionality given that she’s really been little more than a background character. I did think they did a nice job fleshing out the character and her culture here though. I’m pretty sure she’ll be back before long.

The Admiral is well played with great ambiguity. On one hand he’s stern and you don’t really know if you can trust him, on another you can understand his hesitancy to fully trust the Disco crew’s tall tales. Potentially interesting character. Plus, he is a real silver fox I have to say. In fact, the Starfleet scenes were really compelling because things felt a little uncomfortable and off...you really don’t know how fully you can trust these guys.

Not overly fond of the new uniforms, particularly the Admiral’s, but they’re not bad.

 

[UssGlenn]

even willing to ignore the registry of the second Defiant, that was problematic in any case, by imagining that it was either a Defiant-A or just kept the Sao Paolo’s prefix.

I expect it either kept the Sao Paulo registry or got an A, but they painted the hull with the old NX number as a bit of a misinformation campaign. A missed opportunity to have a scene with Weyoun momentarily confused about having blown that ship up already.

why on earth would they leave a seed ship carrying the most important cargo for the federation just floating around in a spaceship susceptible to damage from ion storms and other hazards. I mean why not just keep it within the distortion field. or on a planet like Earth which has powerful defenses.

Keeping it close to HQ would indeed be smarter... or having various 'duplicates' of the seeds spread throughout different Federation worlds (like having multiple copies of same data stored in different locations).

There's no reason to think there aren't also planet based backups, there was no need to mention them since Burnham's first source idea panned out. And of course the reason to have one on a ship in the first place is to keep it away from planetary natural disasters. It's also possible that planetary seed banks only cover their own planets. How strict are the Federations equivalent laws about taking fruit across state lines?

 

[donners22]

If they're establishing that Terrans are the way they are due to some evil gene or something, I wouldn't be surprised if they literally deactivated that in Mirror Georgiou. Maybe that's why she was looking confused at the end.

Oh gawd, I fear you're right. That would be the way to "rehabilitate" her for the S31 series.

 

[Lord Garth]

Oh gawd, I fear you're right. That would be the way to "rehabilitate" her for the S31 series.

Normally, I'd agree with you. But under the circumstances, anything to get us to the point where posting in the eventual forum won't be a nightmare. As it currently is, I have no plans to post in that forum. I don't need that kind of headache in my life.

 

[Mr Awe]

It sounded more like they were ridiculing the idea of there existing anything akin to an evil gene...

...Which really is a pity, because the Mirror Side really is different, with that Different Quality of Light and all.

Timo Saloniemi

In Deep Space 9, it was established that the Terran Empire became enlightened after Mirror, Mirror, which led to its downfall. The fact it became enlightened suggests any evil nature is not written in stone, or their genes.

 

[Yistaan]

The fact it became enlightened suggests any evil nature is not written in stone, or their genes.

Vulcans keep going on and on about how they are inherently barbaric and would descend into chaos if it weren't for Surak's philosophy though (mentioned in the episode 'Sarek': "Vulcan emotions are extremely intense. We have learned to suppress them. No human would be able to control them. They would overwhelm you."). I wonder how they explain Romulans at least having a functional society.

 

[Nyotarules]

Also, with no indication of any civilian government that Admrial Vance answers to, has the Federation become a military junta?

It always was.....

So annoying. Plus your arrogance. A Navy ship from 1776 pulls up at the Pentagon and its first officer starts telling the secretary of the navy how he should assign the crew in 2020.

You mean a Norman ship from 1020 pulls up and tells the Admiral of the French navy what to do....

Not seeing how it's any different that any other show, Trek or otherwise. I recently saw an episode of Voyager where Janeway takes a "field trip" with a trio of problem children from her crew.

And in TOS the landing party almost always consisted of the three main senior officers the captain, the XO and the CMO

Is it me, or does the peak of 350 Federation Members seem kinda small or does the UFP have strict Membership criteria?
In the JJ-Verse, by 2258, the UFP had 120 Members & 700 colonies

Because by 2373, the UFP has ≥ 150 Members & spread over 8,000 ly

Pre-Burn, the UFP had a peak of 350 Members, so that's ~ 3069.

Not everyone wants to the join the collective

I wish the show would not have so many humans in Starfleet, they have the budget they can show a lot more nonhumanoids and nonhumans, a few Xindi species, Denobulans, Ocampa , Vulcans in the background. Admiral Vance should have been half Klingon, that would really shock the Discovery crew.
I agree the talk about the 'Dark ages' and Giotto giving depth to the world ...very Eurocentric
The lullaby music is the key to fixing the dilithium problem
The real Phillipa is with Section 31, the other one is a hologram lol

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

The opening fly by of the ships was amazing. Like LD 4th wall bending amazing but my god did it take a huge nose dive after that.
Burnham: Theres a ship floating around full of seeds.
Admiral: oh ya that ship its still floating round but I forgot.

Culber: Michael go tell that man exactly what Nhan said but in Burnham voice. Telling you to do jobs I could do myself is also my job now Michael, but also stop taking on too much burden
Burnham: What Nhan said
Man: Ok Ill help cause you asked.
Nhan: Michael you are the greatest person who ever lived

And to top it all off 32nd century AI is so amazing blinking kills it. Wow

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

So annoying. Plus your arrogance. A Navy ship from 1776 pulls up at the Pentagon and its first officer starts telling the secretary of the navy how he should assign the crew in 2020.

I agree. You are 1000 years out of time so shut up and let the grown ups work

 

[cooleddie74]

I'd love to see a Xindi-Reptillian walking around in the 32nd century and as a member of Starfleet. We already know the Xindi were Federation members by the 26th century and the Reptillians were probably the most dangerous species among the Xindi during ENT.

 

[Deks]

There's no reason to think there aren't also planet based backups, there was no need to mention them since Burnham's first source idea panned out. And of course the reason to have one on a ship in the first place is to keep it away from planetary natural disasters. It's also possible that planetary seed banks only cover their own planets. How strict are the Federations equivalent laws about taking fruit across state lines?

Good point (also having multiple seed ships all containing same sets of galactic seeds spread through the galaxy in relatively safe locations would be a good backup).
As for how strict Federation equivalent laws are... I don't think there are many/any restrictions on plants that are considered safe for most species part of the Federation.
Besides, all Federation citizens would have to know/understand they cannot ingest certain plants due to incompatibilities with internal biology (it would probably be part of basic education and they would have access to Federation database which contains information on which classes of humanoids, or species in the Federation can eat what safely - so its based on common sense really).

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

"Coming up next on CBS All Access...the 6 hour documentary series continues of The Federation History and Discovery's reception of 930 years of history

This is the show I really want to see. Cut out the heartfelt crap and superhero crew and give me hours of Trek history about what has happened to all our old favorites Bajor, Ferenginar, Cardassiaall of them

 

[Yistaan]

You mean a Norman ship from 1020 pulls up and tells the Admiral of the French navy what to do....

I just don't understand Burnham's and the Discovery crew's mindset. Why are they so bent on doing everything themselves? They all went through what anyone will agree was a traumatic experience, so why are they just bent on taking on more and more?

Admittedly Admiral Vance's standoffish behavior, even considering his valid suspicions, didn't help and elicited a "We have to prove ourselves" attitude from Burnham and Discovery. He should have said, "Hey guys, if what you're telling me is true, you deserve a very long break. Take a 3 month shore leave. Relax, I'll reserve a modern holodeck for you, have some tranya while we study your spore drive." Then he can quietly ask Lt. Willa to keep an armed watch on them at all times.

Even Khan got a warmer reception in Space Seed despite him doing far less than Burnham did to deserve it.

Considering the parallels to Khan's out of time situation in Space Seed, they should have done a homage:

Vance: Forgive my curiosity, Commander Burnham, but my officers are anxious to know more about your extraordinary journey.
Willa: And how you managed to keep it out of the history books.
Burnham: Safety, Admiral. Safety of the Federation. There was little else left in the 23rd century that could stop Section 31.
Willa: Section 31 was formed to stop threats to the Federation. Many considered that a noble effort.
Burnham: A noble effort? Or an attempt to restrict freedom?
Willa: Freedom? Like a team of wild animals attacking their owners?
Burnham: I know something of those years. Remember, it was a time of great dreams, of great aspiration.
Willa: A period of recklessness, including temporal. The temporal accords lists your James Kirk as a massive criminal due to 17 temporal violations.
Burnham: Think of its accomplishments.
Willa: Then your sympathies were with--
Burnham: You are an excellent tactician, Admiral. You let your security chief attack while you sit and watch for weakness.
Vance: You have a tendency to express ideas in military terms, Commander Burnham. This is a social occasion.
Burnham: It has been said that social occasions are only warfare concealed. Many prefer it more honest, more open.
Vance: You fled. Why? Were you afraid?
Burnham: I've never been afraid.
Vance: But you left at the very time the Federation needed courage.
Burnham: We sacrificed our lives to stop Control!
Vance: Control?
Burnham: Excellent. Excellent. But if you will excuse me, gentlemen and ladies, I grow fatigued again. With your permission, Admiral, I will return to my quarters.

 

[Nyotarules]

Saru pointing out to Burnham her pirate ways are not the best method to endear themselves to Starfleet. She is still wearing her courier hat from when she was a free agent.
'Let's help Starfleet by taking their info'...er No Michael
Actually its something that Kirk would have done lol

 

[fireproof78]

I just don't understand Burnham's and the Discovery crew's mindset. Why are they so bent on doing everything themselves? They all went through what anyone will agree was a traumatic experience, so why are they just bent on taking on more and more?

Yes, that makes sense. Why trust someone else to do it?

 

[Lakenheath 72]

Well, Starfleet Academy in the 24th century has classes where the strategies of Sun Tzu, a man who lived in the 5th century BCE, is taught. So, the officers of the 32nd century might be open to what people of the 23rd century might have to say. And, in Star Trek: Into Darkness, Khan was recruited by Starfleet to give them advice on how to deal with the Klingons. I am sure that there are other instances in Star Trek where this happen.

What I am missing is the awe that Captain Picard had for a thousand year old Promellian battlecruiser. The UEDF and Starfleet personnel have been derisive of the Discovery. There has to be someone who feels awed to be in the presence of an older ship, to feel the history of the ship.

 

[fireproof78]

Sure. Just not a part of this story.

 

[Kzinti]

or, possibly rejecting it, if her Terran molecular biology is really that different from ours (they didn't throw that line into the dialog for kicks - there was a far-reaching purpose for it, I'm, thinking).

i'm just gonna quote myself

the holo's were lying to faze her none of it was true

Even io9, which is a pro NuTrek site,

i'm sorry but io9 isn't a ''pro nutrek'' site they've been shitting on disco since episode 1 of season 1

 

[Nyotarules]

There has to be someone who feels awed to be in the presence of an older ship, to feel the history of the ship.

They might in future episodes, since they now accept the crew are not time bandits