Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x14 - "Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2"

[Tim Thomason]

I'm getting a huge kick out of the idea that Discovery defies categorization. But, technically, it's still from the perspective of a crew from the 23rd Century.

The categorization needs changing.

Tim Thomason's proposal:

Current Star Trek Series:
- Star Trek: Discovery
- Other forums to be added in production order (Picard, Section 31, etc.)

Previous Star Trek Series:
- Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series
- Star Trek: The Next Generation
- Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
- Star Trek: Voyager
- Enterprise

 

[Tosk]

Though there are many flaws with the whole "Cornwell's heroic sacrifice" moment - most notably, as I said, the idea that blast doors (with a window!) could protect Pike from a photon torpedo exploding less than 20 feet away - from a character sense it was clear what they were trying to do here. Cornwell died for one reason only - in order to reinforce why Pike has accepted his fate to become a wheelchair-confined invalid.

Honestly, they could have kept almost everything the same and "fixed it" very easily. You move the shot of the turbolift closing to before the explosion goes off.

Of course, they wanted the shot of Pike's POV looking through the hull rupture out into space so logic doesn't enter into it.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

may be losing an admiral quite unnecessarily made them rethink their design in the years to come

That's a good reason to not cheapen out on levers =D

 

[Lord Garth]

Tim Thomason's proposal:

Current Star Trek Series:
- Star Trek: Discovery
- Other forums to be added in production order (Picard, Section 31, etc.)

Previous Star Trek Series:
- Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series
- Star Trek: The Next Generation
- Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
- Star Trek: Voyager
- Enterprise

My Non-Serious Proposal....

- Star Trek: The Original Series
- Star Trek: Discovery
- Star Trek: Everything Else

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

The nanites are actually the same nanites that became sentient after Wesley Crusher experimented with them in Evolution. Their exile on Kavis Alpha IV at Picard's hand enraged them, and after coming into contact with an inferior Borg ship, they destroyed all macroforms they could find, then travelled to the past to take over Control, somehow.

Ha.........Wesley is to blame for Control

 

[Tim Thomason]

My Non-Serious Proposal....

- Star Trek: The Original Series
- Star Trek: Discovery
- Star Trek: Everything Else

Gene Roddenberry's Original Canon:
- Star Trek: The Original Series
- Star Trek: The Motion Picture
- Star Trek: The Next Generation (Seasons 1-3)

Other Derivative Works:
- Non-Canon Movies
- Non-Canon Series

 

[Mr Awe]

Ha! Love it! Fixing one line of your proposal! The rest can remain as you have it.

Gene Roddenberry's Original Canon:
- Star Trek: The Original Series (Seasons 1 & 2)

 

[kitik]

Boom, I just read 70 pages!

I must like this show or something.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

The one thing that bothered me the most in the episode was the Stamets/Culber part. I love both of them, and they make a fantastic pair, but I feel like I totally missed something super important. Culber went from I'm-going-to-the-Enterprise to you're-my-everything in the blink of an eye. Or so it seemed to me. What did I miss? Someone help me out here. I'm going to read through this thread now to see what in the world my leaky brain accidentally erased, because I'm sure someone else explained it. (But if someone else wants to answer my question, I'll gladly come back and check the end of the thread before making it through every single page.)

The way it was done I actually thought at the moment that Stamets was dying and imagining Culber there comforting him especially with the angelic music.

 

[kitik]

The way it was done I actually thought at the moment that Stamets was dying and imagining Culber there comforting him especially with the angelic music.

Yeah, I read through all 70 pages, and no one seems able to explain Culber's change of mind. He was in full "I'm not in love with you" mode for months, and while that 30-second pep talk from Reno was nice, it doesn't explain the sudden "you're my everything" switch.

Obviously the writers are just putting people where they wanted them to be. Instead of technobabble it was romancebabble.

 

[RedAlert]

Wow! what a ride!!!
I like it!!! ... not so much as "Brothers", but closer.
I love Reno: "Get off my ass ... sir".
and the starfleet orders about the Discovery destiny and existence.

But... if Burnham set the signals to guide the DSC to just that specifics points of space/time, how Pike noticed the seven of them at the beginning of "Brothers"??

Pike, Spock and Number One show... come to us!!!!

9/10 for me.

 

[Lord Garth]

Yeah, I read through all 70 pages, and no one seems able to explain Culber's change of mind. He was in full "I'm not in love with you" mode for months, and while that 30-second pep talk from Reno was nice, it doesn't explain the sudden "you're my everything" switch.

Obviously the writers are just putting people where they wanted them to be. Instead of technobabble it was romancebabble.

Culber didn't know what to make of himself, he needed space, and Stamets wouldn't give it to him because he wanted to be with Culber every moment. Culber in this whole other place, feeling as if he shouldn't even be there, pushed Stamets away hard, so Culber would leave him alone.

Stamets was in this whole other place, and then he picked a fight with Tyler, hoping to bring out Voq. That didn't happen but Tyler got the anger out of his system that he had. And, with Stamets staying away from him, he finally had the space he needed. He got his space, he got his anger out of his system, then he was ready to reach back out to Stamets.

Stamets was so hurt by Culber pushing him away, that he rejected Culber wanting to make amends and would leave even at the sight of him. So now Culber was ready to kiss and make-up but Stamets wanted nothing to do with it, leaving Culber in this awkward space. But then Stamets felt in this awkward place too, because he didn't like being pushed away and he didn't want to be hurt again. He was worried he'd be hurt again if he went back to Culber again. But he couldn't get that off his mind, so Reno noticed he distracted Stamets was. Stamets also probably wasn't exchanging barbs with her, so she could tell if something was wrong.

That's when she went to Culber to say to work something out. Culber, who as I said already got his inner-demons out of his system, figured the best solution was to just transfer to the Enterprise. To told Stamets and wanted closure. Luckily, Stamets was able to see that Culber was leaving to make him feel better and they reconciled.

Then, Culber realized he couldn't do it. He couldn't go to the Enterprise. So he stayed on Discovery. Then, as Stamets was injured in the Control's attack, Culber healed him and they fell in love again.

I'm not really on this board to talk about the Mushy Stuff, but there's the explanation.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

I've not read through a whole lot of pages in this thread, but oh boy! What a battle! I got chills when Chancellor L'Rell showed up along with the Kelpians in their Ba'ul ship. I'm interested in seeing what the 31st century is like next season... but my question is, why was it necessary for them to go into the future? Once Georgiou sealed Leland in the spore room and he started melting, all the Section 31 drone ships started dying. By this point, Discovery hadn't entered the wormhole yet, and Control was already announced as defeated. Why was it still necessary if Control was defeated?

Also, the end of the episode on the Enterprise REALLY makes me want a Mount/Romijn/Peck starring Star Trek show

 

[cultcross]

Skimming through this thread and I'm not really seeing any totally comprehensive explanation as to why they still had to maroon themselves in the future when Control was already down. This hadn't initially bothered me because I'd assumed, while watching the episode, that they wanted to ensure the Sphere data never fell into the wrong hands... but the more you think about that, the less sense it makes.

Was there an in-episode explanation as to why the jump still had to go ahead after Georgiou took Control out?

Nothing textual. We are left to manufacture patches for the plot hole like "they like sacrifice" and "there might be more control out there". It's clear the writers realised that the flaw, narratively, in the "jump to the future" plan is that it only escapes the bad guy, and doesn't defeat him. It would be a bit unsatisfying for the season's big bad to be left undefeated or for us to assume that Starfleet mopped it up after we left, so they wrote in a scene where punchy-kicky defeats him, and didn't really seem to deal with the way in which that undermined the crew's plan. Firstly, as you've said, the need to still time jump once Leland is destroyed is suspect (reinforced by the way all the ships fail when he died). Secondly, why would you contemplate going through with it with Control on board Discovery? The whole point is to take the data away from Control, and so as soon as they were boarded by Leland, show should have been over. It was a really silly idea to strand yourself in an unknown future with Control on board and nobody for backup. But they seemed to be pressing on with that anyway and just got lucky Georgiou could kill him first.

Has this been cleared up one way or the other?

It was certainly my interpretation that only the small handful of Burnham's friends were going with her. This thread can at least attest that the meaning of that scene was ambiguous which is not great.

Because their going breaks the temporal loop that created him

How so? He clearly still existed in timeline because after Discovery left, they discuss him in the interrogations.

I would love to know when the plan "never think about Discovery again" became the official plan for the show. Was that the idea from episode 1? From the introduction of the Red Angel at the start of season 2? Or did it come into play midway through season 2?

If it was the idea from the very beginning of episode 1, that's unfortunate. Not that it was a horrendous idea or anything, but it really played into the hands of the haters.

My guess is early season 2. They've said from the beginning that canon would line up by the end but they also said details of that which don't really make sense with a time jump, like the aesthetic getting gradually closer to TOS and things like that. I'm not sure I believe they knew how they intended to line it up all along.

Plus there was Nillson (new bridge member in-verse)

Something I did think was odd last week, that she cared so much about Burnham to be one of the ones staying. If the intent was "the whole ship compliment is going with you", that really should have been more clear.

 

[cooleddie74]

At least Cornwell died like a hero. The way many characters in this series die she could have ended up stabbed by an asteroid and then eaten by Control.

 

[Midquest]

Two observations:

The Enterprise's entire viewscreen wall was 100% CGI. That's pretty impressive.

I really liked how sluggishly the big ships moved. Very naval as opposed to the way DS9 ships zoomed around.

 

[Commander Richard]

- I give it a 9. And here's why...

- Space battle... Meh.

- The last few minutes on the Entetprise... Yeah!

- I do like the explanation we got for why Spock doesn't mention a sister or why the other shows don't use the spore drive.

- Yep! They're trying to course correct a lot of decisions made for the show early on.

- And now, what of Discovery? What of Discovery?

 

[Galaxy]

Overall, I really liked this, even with some plot holes.

This had some of the best visual Star Trek has ever done. Still, and this is subjective, style wise I had some issues with it, because the battle had little structure to it, it was just stuff flying all over the place. Interestingly Orville did the same thing a few weeks ago. I would like to see a structured battle like we had in Star Trek II, VI, Nemesis, and DS9 with this kinds of budget.

One thing I would to point out. The room with the torpedo was at the outer edge of the saucer, yet the CGI showed it being 1/3 in. This has happened so many times on Discovery that the CGI does not line up, attention to detail is not their strong suit. I do not not know why Discovery production does not check the work Pixomondo puts out.

They get points for the beams phasers though, and the suit up scene was almost iron man quality.

 

[cooleddie74]

Number One's first name is Una. I'm both surprised it was actually mentioned and not surprised they went with one many fans already knew about.

It fits her.

 

[cultcross]

- I give it a 9. And here's why...

- Space battle... Meh.

Those two points together give me a headache
The episode was a space battle!