Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x12 - "Through the Valley of Shadows"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
The Pike series should be called 'Young Enterprise' with Jim Parsons doing voice overs as the Older Enterprise's computer
I must admit that was sadly distracting from an otherwise terrific scene. It was painfully obvious that it was a (poor) redress. I wish they could have used a new set, or at least something we haven't seen so much.Well. Now we know what the inside of a J-class training vessel looks like. A lot like a redressed Discovery engine room.
That was an idea that crossed my mind, and I want to hope it's true. Perhaps he can't change his fate, but he can alter the extent of the tragedy for others.
G
Gonzo
Guest
Ok I am picking up good signals for this episode but I have not seen it yet so I will not look through the thread until I have.
Thread has not gone up in flames so its not the Borg and I know its battle time but that is it.
Must keep away from thread...
Thread has not gone up in flames so its not the Borg and I know its battle time but that is it.
Must keep away from thread...
I was bored senseless by that episode.
So, let me just get this straight.... If Pike had NOT taken the time crystal, he could have changed the future he saw. However, by taking the crystal, the future he saw is now immutable. There's nothing he can do? Unless it's a predestination paradox and Pike's awareness of the impending accident is the very thing that sets the chain of events in motion for said accident to happen. But wait! The Klingon said if he didn't take the crystal, then he *can* alter the future.
Seriously...
Dialogue of the week: "The present is a veil between the past... and horror. Lift the veil, and madness can ensue".
So, let me just get this straight.... If Pike had NOT taken the time crystal, he could have changed the future he saw. However, by taking the crystal, the future he saw is now immutable. There's nothing he can do? Unless it's a predestination paradox and Pike's awareness of the impending accident is the very thing that sets the chain of events in motion for said accident to happen. But wait! The Klingon said if he didn't take the crystal, then he *can* alter the future.
Seriously...
Dialogue of the week: "The present is a veil between the past... and horror. Lift the veil, and madness can ensue".
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I'd watch it. I'd feel suitably ashamed of myself, but I'd still watch it.
I have to admit, I liked that. Pike's injury isn't just a freak accident, but something he knew about and accepted. In my opinion it does what a good prequel should do, and gives additional weight to something we already know is going to happen.
I was bored senseless by that episode.
So, let me just get this straight.... If Pike had NOT taken the time crystal, he could have changed the future he saw. However, by taking the crystal, the future he saw is now immutable.
What I take from that is the Keeper knew if Pike sees his future he would not want to change it. He knows he sacrifices himself to save lives and there's no way Pike is going to run away from that.
Anticipation and horror. The inability to see the future caused by being trapped in the present (the veil) allows you to imagine good and bad, feeling secure in the idea that your fate is unwritten. If you lift the veil and peak into the future, you might not like what you find.Dialogue of the week: "The present is a veil between the past... and horror. Lift the veil, and madness can ensue".
Much better this week. It still has some carry over bullshit from the last couple of weeks and I still think fighting an evil AI who wants sphere data for reasons is a fairly lame story, I have already penalised the show for that and didn't feel the need to do so again this week. I will judge this episode on its own merits. And there were plenty of merits to go around.
The episode didn't start very strong, it felt like another convuluted Discovery imperative mission that actually was silly, but it recovered quickly once the missions were underway.
The Boreth mission is the episode's best part. I love the idea of the time keepers, and the concept that Klingons of all people were more sensible than we were at realising this shit isn't to be messed with. Pike's discovery of his future and his acceptance of it was really heartbreaking although I would have liked a touch more hesitation and a touch less announcing his motivation. Let us get that through the excellent acting. The monk was a cool character, although I still don't know what his name is.
The mission to the s31 ship was interesting and surprisingly well played given how silly it really was. Control is very Borg like now, even if they're not meant to be literally the same. As always, Burnham and Spock make an excellent pairing to watch.
Sad that again, Tilly and Saru got short changed, and the Hugh story continues to just be a bit odd and unconnected to anything else, but I liked the scene with Jet, and the mess hall scene where the show keeps showing strong female friendships among the crew.
The D7 was really nice, I hope we see it again.
I loved two bits of "thank you!" dialogue this week, one where Burnham called out the stupidity of their decision making the last two episodes and one where someone finally thought of the self destruct.
Overall, an 8, mostly for Boreth. I loved the concept of that, even if the logic of taking the time crystal seals your fate is a bit wobbly.
The episode didn't start very strong, it felt like another convuluted Discovery imperative mission that actually was silly, but it recovered quickly once the missions were underway.
The Boreth mission is the episode's best part. I love the idea of the time keepers, and the concept that Klingons of all people were more sensible than we were at realising this shit isn't to be messed with. Pike's discovery of his future and his acceptance of it was really heartbreaking although I would have liked a touch more hesitation and a touch less announcing his motivation. Let us get that through the excellent acting. The monk was a cool character, although I still don't know what his name is.
The mission to the s31 ship was interesting and surprisingly well played given how silly it really was. Control is very Borg like now, even if they're not meant to be literally the same. As always, Burnham and Spock make an excellent pairing to watch.
Sad that again, Tilly and Saru got short changed, and the Hugh story continues to just be a bit odd and unconnected to anything else, but I liked the scene with Jet, and the mess hall scene where the show keeps showing strong female friendships among the crew.
The D7 was really nice, I hope we see it again.
I loved two bits of "thank you!" dialogue this week, one where Burnham called out the stupidity of their decision making the last two episodes and one where someone finally thought of the self destruct.
Overall, an 8, mostly for Boreth. I loved the concept of that, even if the logic of taking the time crystal seals your fate is a bit wobbly.
I gave this ep an 8!
Enjoyed this a lot: great building towards the season finale! Fantastic Pike scenes and future reveal: Mount is brilliant, and continues to brings massive gravitas to the role!
Interesting to see Tenavik fully grown under the time crystal influence on Borath.
@lord-garth - this episode immediately reminds me of a previous discussion we had, regarding L'Rell and Voq's son, and the compression of time required for him to be the progenitor of a 'TOS-style' Klingon, around the time of Kirk's five year mission.
Voq Theory (graphic/violent)
Although my theory appears to be waaaaaaay off, it was an interesting topic to explore - and funny how time crystals were indeed used to age Tenavik.
Enjoyed this a lot: great building towards the season finale! Fantastic Pike scenes and future reveal: Mount is brilliant, and continues to brings massive gravitas to the role!
Interesting to see Tenavik fully grown under the time crystal influence on Borath.
@lord-garth - this episode immediately reminds me of a previous discussion we had, regarding L'Rell and Voq's son, and the compression of time required for him to be the progenitor of a 'TOS-style' Klingon, around the time of Kirk's five year mission.
Voq Theory (graphic/violent)
Although my theory appears to be waaaaaaay off, it was an interesting topic to explore - and funny how time crystals were indeed used to age Tenavik.
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"Oh my..."
Largely, superb! Except, the Gant/Control scenario on the Section 31 ship felt a tad contrived, as others have said. I found Michael and Spock's repartee and teamwork made up for it, though. Loved the hint of meta-commentary in Spock's line about "choosing to believe" they will find the "meaning" of their experiences "in the end," and how it both reflected and subverted the faith/science dichotomy, just as Pike's experience did the question of fate/choice. Spock places his faith in logic. Pike is fated, but only because he chooses to accept it.
The whole treatment of Pike's future and his acceptance of it as the price to be paid for the chance to save others was simply marvelous. Heartbreaking. Breathtaking. Horrifying, and yet beautiful at the same time. Grim, and yet hopeful. Tragic, and yet inspiring. Pretty potent stuff.
I must say, between this and Vina's depiction in "If Memory Serves" (DSC), I find "The Menagerie" (TOS) immensely enhanced and deepened. While the idea and image of a disfigured Pike had always been a singularly and hauntingly memorable one, overall the framing story of that two-parter had always felt to me like exactly what it was: something rather indifferently tacked onto "The Cage" (which on its own has long stood among my favorite pieces of Trek, painfully dated sexism aside) in order to make use of its footage, and thereby meet production deadlines. DSC works wonders for it by further fleshing out elements of Pike and Vina's characters (and explaining Spock's otherwise-seemingly misplaced trust in the Talosians) to the effect of better bridging those two disparate stories so hastily jumbled together to create "The Menagerie" (TOS). It's just so very fitting, the old giving birth to the new, and the new giving birth to the old, all at once. Along with episodes like "Lethe" (DSC), "Light And Shadows" (DSC), and the aforementioned "If Memory Serves" (DSC), a prime example (no pun intended) of the show offering up amply worthy justification for its appropriation of characters and settings from TOS.
Also, I'm surprised to find not too many others have yet mentioned (only @guyute03 so far, unless I'm mistaken) how the time crystal showing Pike his future was quite reminiscent of the Orbs in DS9.
As I have from the very beginning, I continue to find the Klingons one of my absolute favorite elements of DSC! They are ever transfixing to me, as I found them in TOS and the films as well, but not always on subsequent shows. (There were exceptions in each, though.) We continue to see facets of them that we never have before. This outing was wild on that front, and delightfully so!
The mess hall scene and Reno and Culber's subsequent chat were nice touches, too. (But where was Tilly? On Xahea, perhaps? Did we see her at all? Did anyone even mention her? I'll have to re-watch.)
-MMoM
Largely, superb! Except, the Gant/Control scenario on the Section 31 ship felt a tad contrived, as others have said. I found Michael and Spock's repartee and teamwork made up for it, though. Loved the hint of meta-commentary in Spock's line about "choosing to believe" they will find the "meaning" of their experiences "in the end," and how it both reflected and subverted the faith/science dichotomy, just as Pike's experience did the question of fate/choice. Spock places his faith in logic. Pike is fated, but only because he chooses to accept it.
The whole treatment of Pike's future and his acceptance of it as the price to be paid for the chance to save others was simply marvelous. Heartbreaking. Breathtaking. Horrifying, and yet beautiful at the same time. Grim, and yet hopeful. Tragic, and yet inspiring. Pretty potent stuff.
I must say, between this and Vina's depiction in "If Memory Serves" (DSC), I find "The Menagerie" (TOS) immensely enhanced and deepened. While the idea and image of a disfigured Pike had always been a singularly and hauntingly memorable one, overall the framing story of that two-parter had always felt to me like exactly what it was: something rather indifferently tacked onto "The Cage" (which on its own has long stood among my favorite pieces of Trek, painfully dated sexism aside) in order to make use of its footage, and thereby meet production deadlines. DSC works wonders for it by further fleshing out elements of Pike and Vina's characters (and explaining Spock's otherwise-seemingly misplaced trust in the Talosians) to the effect of better bridging those two disparate stories so hastily jumbled together to create "The Menagerie" (TOS). It's just so very fitting, the old giving birth to the new, and the new giving birth to the old, all at once. Along with episodes like "Lethe" (DSC), "Light And Shadows" (DSC), and the aforementioned "If Memory Serves" (DSC), a prime example (no pun intended) of the show offering up amply worthy justification for its appropriation of characters and settings from TOS.
Also, I'm surprised to find not too many others have yet mentioned (only @guyute03 so far, unless I'm mistaken) how the time crystal showing Pike his future was quite reminiscent of the Orbs in DS9.
As I have from the very beginning, I continue to find the Klingons one of my absolute favorite elements of DSC! They are ever transfixing to me, as I found them in TOS and the films as well, but not always on subsequent shows. (There were exceptions in each, though.) We continue to see facets of them that we never have before. This outing was wild on that front, and delightfully so!
The mess hall scene and Reno and Culber's subsequent chat were nice touches, too. (But where was Tilly? On Xahea, perhaps? Did we see her at all? Did anyone even mention her? I'll have to re-watch.)
-MMoM
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G
Gonzo
Guest
Failed miserably and just gone through the thread.
Now that we have been given a glimpse of the Enterprise with Pike in command how can they not give us an actual series.
From next weeks trailer it looks like it is going to be a big battle after all, no surprise that Control would spread itself out as quickly as possible, just surprised it had not done it sooner.
Looks like we will finally see the reason why S31 changed their operating model, if all of the S31 ships are enemy AI controlled then that would mean Georgiou and Tyler are the last S31 personnel left alive which will lead in nicely to the upcoming series.
Perhaps they will also get a new ship as all the others ones have been destroyed.
It certainly explains Sloans methods in DS9.
Will watch later.
Now that we have been given a glimpse of the Enterprise with Pike in command how can they not give us an actual series.
From next weeks trailer it looks like it is going to be a big battle after all, no surprise that Control would spread itself out as quickly as possible, just surprised it had not done it sooner.
Looks like we will finally see the reason why S31 changed their operating model, if all of the S31 ships are enemy AI controlled then that would mean Georgiou and Tyler are the last S31 personnel left alive which will lead in nicely to the upcoming series.
Perhaps they will also get a new ship as all the others ones have been destroyed.
It certainly explains Sloans methods in DS9.
Will watch later.
Agreed. I rewatched and greatly enjoyed “The Menagerie” after seeing “If Memory Serves”. I think I will do it again now after this episode.
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I'm noticing some of the finer details on the Enterprise bridge. Love that the safety rails have a strip of lighting across them that flashes red during an alert.
This is pretty much exactly what I was hoping for if we ever saw the Enterprise bridge on Discovery; it's modernized, but, not so much to the point where it's unrecognizable. It has the Discovery aesthetic and maintains the TOS color pallet, but you can still tell this is the USS Enterprise. If you ask me, this is what the bridge in the Kelvin timeline films should have looked like.
This is pretty much exactly what I was hoping for if we ever saw the Enterprise bridge on Discovery; it's modernized, but, not so much to the point where it's unrecognizable. It has the Discovery aesthetic and maintains the TOS color pallet, but you can still tell this is the USS Enterprise. If you ask me, this is what the bridge in the Kelvin timeline films should have looked like.
A solid 9. Some seriously beautiful stuff in this episode and a vast improvement on the last couple of weeks.
- Pike has been cemented as my favourite Captain after this episode. Watching Pike accept his destiny for the greater good was heartbreaking, inspirational and beautiful all at the same time.
- LOVED Boreth, the timekeepers and the depth the Klingons got as a race in this episode. To see them depicted as thoughtful, spiritual and most of all responsible and duty-bound is a nice change of pace to the blustery space-vikings or the savage barbarians they have been depicted as in the past.
- Control was creepy as fuck this episode. The nanites pouring out of Gants body, gave me some serious lovecraftian vibes.
- The D7 looked amazing
- Kenneth Mitchell did an outstanding job as Tenevik (?)
- Spock and Burnham were great together as always.
- The SFX on this show has gotten SO GOOD. Loved the shot of Discovery jumping into orbit of Boreth and the subsequent beauty shots throughout the episode.
- I love how unpredictable this season has been. I didn't think we would see L'rell and Tyler's son again. I honestly just saw 'Point of Light' as a wrap up of the season one Klingon stuff and as a way to get Tyler onto Discovery. I love how that episode became so important to the seasons overall plot and that when we get to see 'Son of none' again he's a grown man, duty bound to guard the Time Crystal and guide a starfleet captain towards his destiny. I would never have predicted that in a million years. I feel like a lot more planning has gone into this season than we're giving the writers credit for.
Bring on next week. I cannot wait to see the Discovery/Enterprise team up.
- Pike has been cemented as my favourite Captain after this episode. Watching Pike accept his destiny for the greater good was heartbreaking, inspirational and beautiful all at the same time.
- LOVED Boreth, the timekeepers and the depth the Klingons got as a race in this episode. To see them depicted as thoughtful, spiritual and most of all responsible and duty-bound is a nice change of pace to the blustery space-vikings or the savage barbarians they have been depicted as in the past.
- Control was creepy as fuck this episode. The nanites pouring out of Gants body, gave me some serious lovecraftian vibes.
- The D7 looked amazing
- Kenneth Mitchell did an outstanding job as Tenevik (?)
- Spock and Burnham were great together as always.
- The SFX on this show has gotten SO GOOD. Loved the shot of Discovery jumping into orbit of Boreth and the subsequent beauty shots throughout the episode.
- I love how unpredictable this season has been. I didn't think we would see L'rell and Tyler's son again. I honestly just saw 'Point of Light' as a wrap up of the season one Klingon stuff and as a way to get Tyler onto Discovery. I love how that episode became so important to the seasons overall plot and that when we get to see 'Son of none' again he's a grown man, duty bound to guard the Time Crystal and guide a starfleet captain towards his destiny. I would never have predicted that in a million years. I feel like a lot more planning has gone into this season than we're giving the writers credit for.
Bring on next week. I cannot wait to see the Discovery/Enterprise team up.
Conversation, circa 2264:
ADMIRAL: Congratulations, Chris, on another successful five-year mission. And good news, your promotion to Fleet Captain went in. Comsol wants you at the Academy Command School helping to instruct the best and brightest Cadets.
PIKE: ... Pass.
ADMIRAL: Congratulations, Chris, on another successful five-year mission. And good news, your promotion to Fleet Captain went in. Comsol wants you at the Academy Command School helping to instruct the best and brightest Cadets.
PIKE: ... Pass.
Yeah, I am expecting an origin story for the Borg. My prediction is that after the big battle between Starfleet and Control ships that some Control ships escape. They get sucked in to the past and taken to the DQ because of some snafu with the time crystals. Discovery self-destructs thus saving the galaxy from future control but the present day Control ships take over a planet that uses some type of collective hive mind to communicate. Merging the nanites of Control with the planet's collective hive mind, the inhabitants of this planet in the DQ because the first Borg.
L'Rell has been eating good.....or at least the actress who plays her has. Her face is fat.
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