Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x11 - "Perpetual Infinity"

[eschaton]

I'm not sure yet what can be gleaned from DEEP SPACE NINE (but I am sure somebody can find something)

Section 31 of course.

 

[Lord Garth]

But that implies all sentient life in the galaxy hasn't been wiped out.

Lordy, I hope that the problem isn't no one in the writer's room knows the correct definition of galaxy.

Lordy? I prefer Garth.

But anyway. If we're talking about technology advanced enough to wipe out all sentient life in the Galaxy, then we're also talking about counter-technology advanced enough to shield itself from detection and destruction. There's always a tit for tat. There's always a counter-measure. There are always people hiding that not even Control or Spock can detect. All powerful doesn't mean all knowing. Though if you are that advanced, maybe you do think you know it all.

Remember those old mysteries on TNG? This entire season is one of those mysteries. Just on a larger scale. Think of it like that.

 

[eschaton]

I was really surprised they took care of Control/Leland so quickly, I expected him to pretty much be the big bad for the rest of the season..

They didn't. Someone transported back to the Section 31 ship, which is heavily implied to be "Leland." The Section 31 ship then escaped. Thus Control is still at large.

 

[DaveyNY]

Section 31 of course.

Ah yes... well there's another Senior Moment.

 

[SG-17]

It's not a visual difference, in this case.


That kind of healing is vastly superior to shields. In every appearance of the Borg to date, when their shields didn't work, they had no defense whatsoever to phaser fire or being shot with bullets. Their exoplating was damn near useless on its own.

It's not just a visual difference--it's a functional one. Leland didn't block the phaser blasts with a forcefield, he tanked them. No adaptation period required if you can just absorb the blast and keep going, like nothing happened.

As depicted, this guy could tear Borg drones to pieces--they wouldn't stand a chance in a fight.

Speaking of fighting: the Borg have never been fast or good at martial arts like Control!Leland is. They're cyber-zombies--nigh-inexorable, not quick.

If he's the genesis of the Borg, they should be more unbeatable by the 24th century, not less.

Still doesn't preclude him from being the origin of the Borg. There is a lot of time from when we know the Borg were around to when we first see them. Plus the Queen's form is obviously better than the drones and she is unique.

There is a lot we don't know about the Borg. The Queen is an individual, Control-Leland is an individual. Maybe that matters here?

You cannot discount the possibility that Control-Leland is Borg.

 

[Roald]

Plus if Control-Leland is shunted hundreds or thousands of years into the past into the Delta Quadrant that is a lot of time for change. We know from Seven that Borg records of their early history are largely fragmented and incomplete.

That, and it would explain the extreme interest in humanity... though it would be weird that they would try to prevent First contact though... in any case, if they do it right, it can be the coolest thing ever

 

[F. King Daniel]

Really enjoyed this one. I was expecting Michael to don the Red Angel suit and jump to the future but nope.

So this is totally a Borg Origin story. I bet it's gonna end with them launching Control to the past of the Delta Quadrant.

Spocks, "and I like science!" was adorable and pure.

 

[Borgminister]

Have to watch it again a second time before offering an opinion. Hell of a lot going on, and the twist with the 7 lights at the end piqued my imagination. I've noticed that the coming attractions are good enough to almost wipe out the detailed memory of what you just watched and divert your mind to anticipating and figuring out what the heck is gonna happen next.

 

[SG-17]

That, and it would explain the extreme interest in humanity... though it would be weird that they would try to prevent First contact though... in any case, if they do it right, it can be the coolest thing ever

Maybe the Borg don't remember their origin with humanity but their fascination with them is sort of an "instinct"?

Maybe it always explains why they absolutely suck at their efforts to assimilate Earth? A little bit of that core Control directive still present at the heart of the Borg?

Like someone said earlier the Borg are the ultimate perversion of the Federation. Unity, Peace, Coexistence. Taken to amoral logical endpoints.

 

[SolarisOne]

Still doesn't preclude him from being the origin of the Borg. There is a lot of time from when we know the Borg were around to when we first see them. Plus the Queen's form is obviously better than the drones and she is unique.

She can't do any of the stuff he can. He'd rip her to pieces. He'd rip that "29th century" drone that formed from the Doctor's mobile emitter to pieces. With his physical capabilities, he's probably the strongest non-god-tier character in the whole goddamn franchise to date. The Borg aren't that at all.

In sum: Leland is just another avatar for Control. Infiltrating preexisting cybernetic implants, like it did with Airiam, didn't work out, so it devised a new strategy.

You cannot discount the possibility that Control-Leland is Borg.

I can, and I am, until such time as the Discovery writers jump the shark and prove me wrong. If I am proven wrong, I'll admit such.

 

[Tim Thomason]

It's not a visual difference, in this case.


That kind of healing is vastly superior to shields. In every appearance of the Borg to date, when their shields didn't work, they had no defense whatsoever to phaser fire or being shot with bullets. Their exoplating was damn near useless on its own.

It's not just a visual difference--it's a functional one. Leland didn't block the phaser blasts with a forcefield, he tanked them. No adaptation period required if you can just absorb the blast and keep going, like nothing happened.

As depicted, this guy could tear Borg drones to pieces--they wouldn't stand a chance in a fight.

Speaking of fighting: the Borg have never been fast or good at martial arts like Control!Leland is. They're cyber-zombies--nigh-inexorable, not quick.

If he's the genesis of the Borg, they should be more unbeatable by the 24th century, not less.

The Borg are slow, lumbering dolts who don't quick-heal themselves for a very good reason. The same reason they only send out one cube at a time and proudly announce their arrival and intentions.

That reason is cultivation. They want their prey to resist, to revolt. They can easily beat any of our heroes just with the tools we know they have, but they handicap themselves in order to "evolve" the target to a point where they are close to a threat.

This way, the target is eventually something worth acquiring. Something that will "evolve" the Borg upon assimilation. They're not imperialists, they're gardeners, breeding and trimming the galactic races in order to find the perfect recipe for perfection.

So, Control could easily be the proto-Borg. His mission wasn't to get killed. It was to turn the doohickey back on so it could download as much sphere data as possible. No time for lumbering, metal plate those phaser burns, and crank up the fleshbag's adrenaline and whatever else to keep him going.

 

[TPezz]

Control being the origin of the Borg could explain why the Borg have consistently failed to assimilate the Federation. There might be a tiny nugget of Control's original directives still present at the core of the Borg code/consciousness that hampers their efforts to assimilate Earth.

Wouldn’t their attempt to prevent first contact then mean that ultimately they wouldn’t exist, as S31 would never have existed to make Control in the first place?

 

[Gonzo]

Just watched this week's episode, solid 9/10.

It really is starting to look like we may get some sort of reset, it seems to be the only way to defeat the AI, if it is defeated then the future will change which will also have a knock back effect on the past.

Won't surprise me if we get a final battle between the S31 ship that Control is on and the Discovery, perhaps the Enterprise will make a welcome return to finally finish off Control.

I half expected Michael to use the suit.

Either way it looks like Leland will soon be out of the picture opening the way for a Georgiou and Tyler S31 show.

Will go through thread later.

 

[SG-17]

Wouldn’t their attempt to prevent first contact then mean that ultimately they wouldn’t exist, as S31 would never have existed to make Control in the first place?

As Seven said, records are fragmented. Its likely they don't remember their origins.

 

[cultcross]

perhaps the Enterprise will make a welcome return to finally finish off Control.

I'd say that's almost certain - there's been a lot of talk that they've built and filmed scenes in an Enterprise bridge, which would fit perfectly with a last minute save in battle.

 

[Gepard]

There was a whole lot of stuff thrown at the screen this week that didn't really sink in for me. Why did she have to drive him crazy again? She can go back in time and move a whole church during a war but she can't leave an understandable note for Spock or Burnham?

Maybe the season was always going to end up this incoherent no matter who was in charge, but it really seems like the spackle is showing. Berg and Harberts deserved to be fired if the rumors about abuse are true, but I wish somebody had continued their original plan after their firing. (Though, again, if abuse was involved I can totally see people not wanting to.) I can't imagine it would have been less engaging than this.

BurnMom didn't do any of the sensible things not because it's meaningful, from a character or story perspective, but because the Angel didn't do those things in the first half of the season and therefore she can't either. It's the tail wagging the dog.

Spock was too young and too caught up in his own problems to have understood any message sent during that time period.
Gabrielle apparently tried on many an occasion to let Michael know, but TIME stopped her.
So eventually she decided specifically that it would be better not to.


This is what I mean about having too critical a mindset when watching a TV show.
If one takes just a moment or two, almost everything can be explained in some fashion.

I'll accept just about anything if it's made dramatically compelling. My problem with the last few episodes is they can't even manage that. Humans building robot slaves that rebel, evolve, and have a Plan sould be ridiculous and could offer much fodder for nitpicking, but because Battlestar Galactica took the time to ground events in relatable human motivations, I have no desire to. DSC by contrast filled us in on BurnMom's history with pure exposition. If the show won't offer anything beyond a rapid fire listing of facts, why shouldn't viewers point out when it doesn't make sense?

 

[cultcross]

As Seven said, records are fragmented. Its likely they don't remember their origins.

I think the point was that stopping first contact didn't create a grandfather paradox, we see an Assimilated Earth

 

[Romulan_spy]

Regarding the Borg issue, since this season is all about time travel, it is entirely possible that we are seeing an alternate version of the Borg and not *our* Borg. Maybe we are seeing what the Borg would have been like if Discovery had failed but they succeed so this version of the Borg never happens, and instead we get a different Borg later (TNG). We might also simply be seeing a Borg-like species, and not the actual Borg at all.

 

[DaveyNY]

Maybe the season was always going to end up this incoherent no matter who was in charge, but it really seems like the spackle is showing. Berg and Harberts deserved to be fired if the rumors about abuse are true, but I wish somebody had continued their original plan after their firing. (Though, again, if abuse was involved I can totally see people not wanting to.) I can't imagine it would have been less engaging than this.

BurnMom didn't do any of the sensible things not because it's meaningful, from a character or story perspective, but because the Angel didn't do those things in the first half of the season and therefore she can't either. It's the tail wagging the dog.

I'll accept just about anything if it's made dramatically compelling. My problem with the last few episodes is they can't even manage that. Humans building robot slaves that rebel, evolve, and have a Plan sould be ridiculous and could offer much fodder for nitpicking, but because Battlestar Galactica took the time to ground events in relatable human motivations, I have no desire to. DSC by contrast filled us in on BurnMom's history with pure exposition. If the show won't offer anything beyond a rapid fire listing of facts, why shouldn't viewers point out when it doesn't make sense?

I guess I don't mind having to fill in some of the perceived holes with the facts given.
I'd rather do that than have Them spend an episode visually explaining everything.
I've found that it's more fun taking what's given and work with it, than tearing it apart just because it seems to be incomplete.
But that's just the way I am I guess.

 

[SG-17]

I think the point was that stopping first contact didn't create a grandfather paradox, we see an Assimilated Earth

Logically Enterprise-E should have ceased to exist, same as logically the NX-01 should have ceased to exist with the Nazi Vampire bullshit. But they didn't. Maybe the fact that Enterprise-E prevented the changes in the first place prevented a grandfather paradox.

As Janeway says "My advice on making sense of temporal paradoxes is simple: don't even try."

Plus by the very nature of having prequels is dealing with minor retcons.