Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x05 - "Saints of Imperfection"

[Nerys Myk]

Hmm, I have a cool theory about what the mycelial network is really made from...

It's kind of in the name. But good effort.

 

[Succubint]

Georgiou got herself killed. Being the superior officer she made the call to go on the retrieval mission. She knew the risks. No way was Burnham responsible via negligence, imo, but I forget the charges she pled guilty to.

Tuskin38: Cornwell explicitly says that S31 is a critical intelligence division. Doesn't that imply it's not rogue or independent yet, but a part of the system, subject to some oversight?

 

[Tracer Bullet]

Georgiou takes over Section 31 (Leland dies in an 'accident') and uses it to try and takeover the Federation, she is defeated by the hero Burnham and Section 31 is disbanded by the Federation. However it goes underground and is taken over by a computer programme as per the novels.
The End

You know... I would actually be fine without this and it would go a long way towards erasing the bad taste putting space Hitler in this show left. Of course, she’s getting he own show, so no way is this actually what is going to happen.

 

[eschaton]

Who in the episode?

If Tyler has a Klingon lifespan rather than a Human one, he should be alive by the 24th century.

Of course, he's also in Section 31, but still.

 

[Nerys Myk]

If Tyler has a Klingon lifespan rather than a Human one, he should be alive by the 25th century.

Of course, he's also in Section 31, but still.

I guess so. But I don't think he was in any episodes of DS9.

 

[Lonemagpie]

"There's no word for the agony of uncertainty"
No?
Dear Michael Burnham: The word is "Brexit".
Apart from that, not a bad episode of Discovery - felt largely like a backdoor pilot, and I'm really in two minds about *that* return (which makes little sense, and also since the performer in question is a less good actor than others, I could happily do without).
But I really, *really* want lots of hot fighty hatesex between Michael and Georgiou. Both actresses seem to be taking it that way in their performances...

 

[Arpy]

There are large gaps in my knowledge of the last 100 years and I actually like history.

We’re not talking about some foreign war or method for making candles. 31 are as sexy and sinister as it gets.

Bashir seems totally unaware of smooth head Klingons. Yet surely they were covered in History...

Given that he’s a genetically-engineered ubermensch, he’d even more likely have heard of both. Again 1) a failing of the 31 storyline, and 2) why the Klingon thing works as a joke but not reality. Your arch nemesis and the most significant aliens in the galaxy, monstrous bloodthirsty death-cultists, went through an infiltrative Cylon WE LOOK LIKE YOU period less than a hundred years earlier, and military officers (including genetically-engineered super ones) don’t know about it?

More evidence of bad storytelling (if you’re going to take it not as the joke it was intended as) does not excuse bad storytelling. It only reinforces the pattern.

 

[eschaton]

More evidence of bad storytelling (if you’re going to take it not as the joke it was intended as) does not excuse bad storytelling. It only reinforces the pattern.

Yeah, the problem during Bermen Trek is that the DS9 crew rightfully considered it a show first and foremost, and didn't always take it seriously. ENT - once Manny Coto was in charge - became a canon-nerd's wet dream. He definitely fell into the "Trek is a documentary" bucket.

 

[Nerys Myk]

We’re not talking about some foreign war or method for making candles. 31 are as sexy and sinister as it gets.

Lots of things are "sexy and sinister". Not sure if that makes it worthy of a chapter in the history books.

Given that he’s a genetically-engineered ubermensch, he’d even more likely have heard of both.

Apparently not. Not sure being genetically-engineered grants him special knowledge.

More evidence of bad storytelling (if you’re going to take it not as the joke it was intended as) does not excuse bad storytelling. It only reinforces the pattern.

Joke or not it's a line in the episode and means Julian was clueless or slept through history class.

 

[Vger23]

That wasn't the situation - there was no immediate threat, there was just the opportunity to commit a horrendous act of genocide to prevent the possibility of future conflict that they might lose. When presented with an immediate threat, Picard has shown no qualms over using weapons at his disposal to neutralise it. But this was different. To draw a contemporary slightly less hyperbolic analogy, Picard was faced with torturing the terrorist and chose not to. It is plainly obvious our world could still do with that lesson.

Edited to add: while I happen to agree with Picard's actions, the fact that I think he was right is not actually my point: the show thought he was. It was presented as so many TOS and TNG stories were as a moral dilemma cum morality play, and Trek was setting out its philosophical stall very prominently. Those themes continued throughout, and while DS9 moved away from moralising to leaving open ended debates for the viewer to consider, it certainly had its share of people who thought like Section 31 coming to a sticky end.

The Federation's high-horse ideals will mean very little if they are not around to enact them. And assimilation by the Borg is a fate worse than extinction.

Picard should have executed the plan and never looked back. An entire galactic civilization could have depended upon it. Necheyav was right to blast him on it.

And if I'm immoral for thinking that, so be it. I'd sleep well at night if I knew someone out there (S31?) would be willing to make the tough call. And I'd sleep well pulling the trigger myself knowing that I don't need to worry about an entire civilization succumbing to a fate worse than death.

Someone wise once said something about "the needs of the many" I think.

 

[Arpy]

Lots of things are "sexy and sinister". Not sure if that makes it worthy of a chapter in the history books.

The point is that 31 is the sort of thing that WOULD be remembered.

Not sure being genetically-engineered grants him special knowledge.

It does make him FAR more likely to.

Joke or not it's a line in the episode and means Julian was clueless...

BECAUSE it’s a joke. And you can get away with whatever you want on a TV show. Doesn’t not make it canon. Just makes it bad.

 

[SJGardner]

Joke or not it's a line in the episode and means Julian was clueless or slept through history class.

Yeah, I mean, we're talking about a guy who doesn't even know the division colors for Command and Engineering/Security were the other way around in the mid-23rd century.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

The Federation's high-horse ideals will mean very little if they are not around to enact them. And assimilation by the Borg is a fate worse than extinction.

Picard should have executed the plan and never looked back. An entire galactic civilization could have depended upon it. Necheyav was right to blast him on it.

And if I'm immoral for thinking that, so be it. I'd sleep well at night if I knew someone out there (S31?) would be willing to make the tough call. And I'd sleep well pulling the trigger myself knowing that I don't need to worry about an entire civilization succumbing to a fate worse than death.

The problem I had with Picard's decision was how shortsighted and selfish it was. To say that the Federations values are more important that the trillions of lives at risk from the Borg is so incomprehensibly wrong that I find it difficult to believe that anyone could side with Picard.

I'd be fine with using Hugh to wipe out the Borg, one life to save an entire galaxy is a small price to pay. I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The point is that 31 is the sort of thing that WOULD be remembered.

Depends on what they did. And who actually bothers to care enough to read. They didn't exactly start WWII or rule a quarter of the known world. Being involved in covert ops usually means, "didn't make the papers".

t does make him FAR more likely to.

I dunno, he didn't seem too keen on it. Spent a lot of his life running from it.

BECAUSE it’s a joke. And you can get away with whatever you want on a TV show. Doesn’t not make it canon. Just makes it bad.

It's a joke,it's canon and it's bad. It can be all three. Canon doesn't mean good. Canon just means it occurred on the show.

 

[Gonzo]

Well ok, if we change completely what section 31 is to be a legitimate CIA/MI6 organisation, then my objection obviously evaporates, but I'm arguing about the section 31 presented on screen. Assassinations, genocide, no moral compass but nationalism. Starfleet Intelligence had always been name dropped along the way too, and that could function perfectly well in a "better world" as a legitimate, above board, Intelligence agency. If section 31 and Starfleet Intelligence are to be presented as one and the same, then as I've said upthread, I will happily go along with the retcon and ignore the fact it is ludicrous nobody has heard of them by the late 24th century when people from this era will still be alive. But that isn't what s31 have been shown to be, to date, so I can only go with what I have.

No doubt they will delve into this heavily in the new S31 series and fill it out properly for us, there wouldn't be much of a show if they didn't really.

 

[Vger23]

I don't think the 23rd Century version of S31 is an affront to Roddenberry's Vision or even anything pessimistic. In fact, I think it makes the Pollyanna Federation a little more interesting and realistic. I think it shows that there are hard things to be done for the greater good, and it will provide a platform for some wonderful fan debate over the moral and ethical choices needing to be made over the next several months.

I'd rather Star Trek do some controversial things (like S31), and cause us to debate, rather than play it safe and obvious. The controversy and debate are part of the fun. Being challenged about what Real Trek is is part of the fun.

One of the reasons I appreciate Discovery and the Kelvinverse films. They create emotion, debate, controversy and fun.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But I really, *really* want lots of hot fighty hatesex between Michael and Georgiou. Both actresses seem to be taking it that way in their performances...

Georgiou raised a Mirror copy of Michael Burham as a daughter.

If you go to the alt universe to ##ck your alt children, to stop it being icky and weird, then congratulations! It's still weird and icky, and you are banana-pants to think it would be otherwise anywhere.

Although the Empress found a universe were the daughter she is into (romantically), was already screwing her brother. So incest is not such a big deal in the prime universe, and fingers crossed that Georgiou can make a successful love connection.

 

[Gonzo]

The Federation's high-horse ideals will mean very little if they are not around to enact them. And assimilation by the Borg is a fate worse than extinction.

Picard should have executed the plan and never looked back. An entire galactic civilization could have depended upon it. Necheyav was right to blast him on it.

And if I'm immoral for thinking that, so be it. I'd sleep well at night if I knew someone out there (S31?) would be willing to make the tough call. And I'd sleep well pulling the trigger myself knowing that I don't need to worry about an entire civilization succumbing to a fate worse than death.

Someone wise once said something about "the needs of the many" I think.

The problem I had with Picard's decision was how shortsighted and selfish it was. To say that the Federations values are more important that the trillions of lives at risk from the Borg is so incomprehensibly wrong that I find it difficult to believe that anyone could side with Picard.

I'd be fine with using Hugh to wipe out the Borg, one life to save an entire galaxy is a small price to pay. I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

In the Shatnerverse books that's very much the sort of thing that the Preservers are trying to teach the Federation in preparation of the inevitable first meeting with the First Federation.

The folly of the prime directive and the need for direct action regardless of the rules which is what Kirk was all about, hence why they chose him in the first place.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Georgiou raised a Mirror copy of Michael Burham as a daughter.

If you go to the alt universe to ##ck your alt children, to stop it being icky and weird, then congratulations! It's still weird and icky, and you are banana-pants to think it would be otherwise anywhere.

Although the Empress found a universe were the daughter she is into (romantically), was already screwing her brother. So incest is not such a big deal in the prime universe, and fingers crossed that Georgiou can make a successful love connection.

Mirror Kira was hot for prime Kira.

 

[SJGardner]

Mirror Kira was hot for prime Kira.

Mirror Kira was hot for everyone.

Actually, I kind of hated how the show eventually went all the way to Anything That Moves category from what was initially the ultimate expression of her all-encompassing narcissism.