Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x05 - "Saints of Imperfection"

[Arpy]

^^^
- If that were the case, how could Section 31 (by itself, without any Federation government help) block Bashir's request for information?

- And Admiral Ross (one of the Dominion Wars top rank Admirals) worked DIRECTLY with Slone to engineer an assassination within the Romulan Empire that both knew would help 'keep the peace'

My point: Section 31 IS and has always been sanctioned by elements within the Federation government from 2151 to 2378+. (Don't kid yourself )

Because, like Sela said about the Romulan invasion force on Vulcan, once they’re in, they’re in — it becomes simply a fact of life. 31 was entrenched, and no one knew who was a member or how it operated. Remember, Sloan said that it had no HQ. it simply existed in the minds of its cell members, all of whom presumably had access to Starfleet and Federation technology that they used clandestinely.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

The bottom line for me is that if -- hypothetically -- someone asked me back when I was watching TNG if I though t it was possible that there was a CIA or MI6 like clandestine organization working within the Federation that might (and does) engage in morally ambiguous behaviors in order to neutralize security threats against the Federation, I would have said "Sure...why not?"

I'm not talking about the version we saw on Deep Space Nine that seemed to have largely crossed the limits of "morally ambiguous" and instead seem to possess a totally broken moral compass. That version of section 31 could be ret-conned (if they want) as an aberration. Maybe the leadership of Section 31 over the years (such as the DS9 era) had sometimes lost sight of what the Federation stands for and had strayed too far from the original purpose for section 31.

 

[Jedi_Master]

The NovelVerse seems to agree with the notion that Section 31 devolved into a dangerous organization that had irreparably destroyed its connection to the Federation as a whole. Surely Discovery or the potential S31 series could explore that path.

 

[cultcross]

The bottom line for me is that if -- hypothetically -- someone asked me back when I was watching TNG if I though t it was possible that there was a CIA or MI6 like clandestine organization working within the Federation that might (and does) engage in morally ambiguous behaviors in order to neutralize security threats against the Federation, I would have said "Sure...why not?"

I'm not talking about the version we saw on Deep Space Nine that seemed to have largely crossed the limits of "morally ambiguous" and instead seem to possess a totally broken moral compass. That version of section 31 could be ret-conned (if they want) as an aberration. Maybe the leadership of Section 31 over the years (such as the DS9 era) had sometimes lost sight of what the Federation stands for and had strayed too far from the original purpose for section 31.

Well ok, if we change completely what section 31 is to be a legitimate CIA/MI6 organisation, then my objection obviously evaporates, but I'm arguing about the section 31 presented on screen. Assassinations, genocide, no moral compass but nationalism. Starfleet Intelligence had always been name dropped along the way too, and that could function perfectly well in a "better world" as a legitimate, above board, Intelligence agency. If section 31 and Starfleet Intelligence are to be presented as one and the same, then as I've said upthread, I will happily go along with the retcon and ignore the fact it is ludicrous nobody has heard of them by the late 24th century when people from this era will still be alive. But that isn't what s31 have been shown to be, to date, so I can only go with what I have.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The could be a special task force within SI that later becomes autonomous and still later goes rogue.

 

[CRM-114]

It's very pro-fictiony. The previously unmentioned relative is all over fiction. Star Trek alone has given us Spock's brother, Scotty's nephew, Worf's brother, McCoy's daughter and Sulu's daughter. To name a few

David Marcus, too. Kirk recognized him on Regula, even if the audience didn't.

 

[Succubint]

In the episode, I believe S31 is described as a division of Starfleet Intelligence. Clearly at some point it becomes rogue, but for now it seems to work under that umbrella.

 

[IMC Headquarters]

Section 31 reminds me of UNIT. Everyone knows it exists, yet no one believes in alien threats.

 

[matthunter]

Section 31 reminds me of UNIT. Everyone knows it exists, yet no one believes in alien threats.

"Bloody Torchwood!" (Random old lady in Cardiff, about a Victorian-era conspiracy set up to covertly use alien tech to battle threats to Earth)

 

[matthunter]

Either S31 gets crippled for a time after the events the writers are leading up to, meaning they are out of play until the DS9 era, OR they majorly dropped the ball not spotting the bluegill alien infestation of Starfleet Command in TNG's "Conspiracy".

OR they were the first targets of that invasion, which might explain their more aggressive stance against the Founders...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In the episode, I believe S31 is described as a division of Starfleet Intelligence. Clearly at some point it becomes rogue, but for now it seems to work under that umbrella.

Apparently, then, Section 31 has become MORE legit since ENT, at which point it did not seem to be a division of SI at all.

So apparently its credibility goes both up AND down.

 

[cbl1]

Scored 9 - - every scene with Capt. Pike …. Anson Mount nails the character! Behind Picard and Kirk … absolutely in my Top 3 Star Trek Captains.

 

[Tuskin38]

Didn’t Section 31 steal that cloaking device right afterwards?

Not in canon.

Yes it does. The organization as presented on DS9 was that it was a forgotten price of legislation from the founding of Starfleet that no one thought was enforced. Here it’s just another branch of Starfleet Intelligence under the standard chain of command.

If Starfleet Intelligences is offing people and toppling governments, the galaxy would know. And it would entirely undercut its “we’re the good guys” schtick. Which, to us, it should.

That's what they were in the 24th century, we're not in the 24th Century.

And DSC doesn't say they're part of Starfleet Intelligence.

They seemed relative consistent in the 22nd

There's not enough evidence to say either way.

 

[IMC Headquarters]

I foresee a Section 31 bluetooth communicator badge on the market soon.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Starfleet Intelligence itself has always carried out clandestine operations - The starting point for 'The Pegasus' is a spy finding out some useful information.

And by the end the ship had to free itself from being phased into... hey, wait a minute! And then this episode has a spaceship cloaked as an asteroid, hmm.

 

[eschaton]

I'm sorry, I don't buy that Section 31 could go underground to the extent it seems to have been by the time of DS9. They didn't say "I thought Section 31 was disbanded a century ago" - no one seemed to have any knowledge of it but a select few. That seems to suggest it was somehow purged from electronic records across the Federation, which suggests a rather more totalitarian culture than what has been established.

 

[Arpy]

That's what they were in the 24th century, we're not in the 24th Century.

Right. A century later. Not in another space time continuum.

And DSC doesn't say they're part of Starfleet Intelligence.

The point is that they’re openly working with Starfleet as though they were simply a rare but known branch of the service.

...in their absurd black leather gestapo uniforms and sinister-looking ships, twirling their mustaches. It’s farce.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'm sorry, I don't buy that Section 31 could go underground to the extent it seems to have been by the time of DS9. They didn't say "I thought Section 31 was disbanded a century ago" - no one seemed to have any knowledge of it but a select few. That seems to suggest it was somehow purged from electronic records across the Federation, which suggests a rather more totalitarian culture than what has been established.

Who would have been around to say, "Section 31! I've heard of them". As someone pointed out out these are the same people who apparently never heard of a smooth head Klingon. Did they purged that from the electronic records too?

 

[Nyotarules]

Also I thought Pike said Nhan was an engineer, why is she chief of security?

Starfleet officers multitask - Spock was XO and Head of sciences, Chekov was navigator and security chief, Kelvin Chekov was navigator and replaced Scotty in STB as Chief Engineer

Culber's "resurrection" is bound to spark some interesting theological debates amongst the fans.

They can add them to the debates about Spock's return in TSFS, Scotty's by Nomad, McCoys's in Shore Leave and Kirk's in STID. Plus May gave Culber a nice haircut and shave before she sent him back lol

Burnham's monologue's, well Kirk used to monologue with his Captain's logs so what's the difference?

This episode was really bad. We're to believe people in the Star Trek universe have souls and Stamets plucked his lovers soul after death and it was given a new mushroom body in the mushroom universe? Dumb.

Also the aliens can make transporters and clone bodies in 60 seconds but cant deal with someone wearing bark? Also dumb.

This was less believable fantasy than anything in Star Wars.

I guess you have never watched TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT or any of the movies

I give it 7/10 I am glad Culber is back however I wish the franchise had the guts to kill of a main character and let them stay dead aka Jadzia and Yar. I prefer a legit Section 31 spy department than the DS9 version, makes sense all major powers in the quadrant have a Section 31 department, as Sisko said its easy to be a saint in Paradise, he should have added when someone is keeping the devils at bay so folks can sleep at night. Plus I'm not a fan of 'we are so perfect' TNG version of humanity. Human nature does not change, it just changes target.

Well it makes them naive fools, for one thing. Remember Picard's speech in The First Duty? Looks pretty stupid in light of Starfleet having a secret death squad.

I disagree, Picard's principles are not diminished just because Starfleet has a secret death squad. Are your personal principles compromised because the nation you belong to does questionable things in your name?

Who would have been around to say, "Section 31! I've heard of them". As someone pointed out out these are the same people who apparently never heard of a smooth head Klingon. Did they purged that from the electronic records too?

Vulcans and other races can live for over 200 years...

 

[IMC Headquarters]

If Section 31 had shadowed Kirk's five- year mission, then maybe a lot of pointless deaths could have been averted. But they held back and let ol' Jimbo deal with all the crap and angst.