Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x05 - "Saints of Imperfection"

[XCV330]

I just wish they weren't so damn long, lol. And I kinda feel like if she just said, "Personal Log," at the beginning, people would hate them a teensy bit less. But then again, I could listen to SMG's voice read the dictionary and be content.

I feel like there's been a war in the writers room about how to handle Burnham from day one. When she's allowed to be human like in Obol for Charon, she's fantastic. When they want to make her the sounding board for some writer's Wisdom McNuggets, it is grating. Maybe they could ask SMG for her input. She's lived in the character awhile now.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

The were shadowy in ENT time just 100 years from the DISC period.

Maybe they were shadowy in ENT, but has since come out of the shadows for DSC. However, perhaps Georgiou and Leland will help Section 31 slink back into the shadows once again, which is where it is by the time Deep Space Nine rolls around.

Maybe she doesn't like the more open direction Section 31 had taken since ENT and attempts to rectify that by becoming more secretive again.

 

[Gonzo]

That isn't the case in Star Trek though - we play by our rules even when the the enemy don't or wouldn't do the same. We are who we say we are, even when it's inconvenient or detrimental to us. TOS established this very early in The Corbomite Manouvre. The sanctioning of s31 throws that completely under a bus.

That episode was written over half a century ago and times have changed, it's to be expected that any space faring civilization would need a clandestine arm just as we do in the real world.

I appreciate you don't like it Cultcross but it is what it is.

 

[Jadeb]

It was also written during the middle of the Vietnam war and mass race riots. The assumption that the world is somehow worse or more complex is the hubris of today, like how every generation assumes it invented sex.

Trek lasted because it chose — chose — optimism over pessimism.

 

[zenophite]

That isn't the case in Star Trek though - we play by our rules even when the the enemy don't or wouldn't do the same. We are who we say we are, even when it's inconvenient or detrimental to us. TOS established this very early in The Corbomite Manouvre. The sanctioning of s31 throws that completely under a bus.

I'm all for that mentality and its one of the reasons why I love Star Trek. This is why I'd like to see how the Section 31 storyline is handled and how it ends, to see if that philosophy I love is earned through the mistakes the Federation makes with having Section 31 be sanctioned.

I have generally the opposite view and is the reason why I really like the idea of a Section 31 in the Star Trek universe.

I don't believe that a society like the federation can realistically survive with a philosophy that binds so rigidly to playing by rules and what they perceive as the "high moral ground" in every scenario. I just can't accept that as realistic - it seems hardly better to me than saying silly things like "love conquers all"

Every society has people who do "dirty work" that most people are not exposed to in a variety of ways from the mundane to the globally important. In real life the majority live in a comfort zone that, to a large extent, rests on the shoulders of such people who by and large are invisible. IMO It is that invisibility that makes it seem like such a society can live without them.

 

[cultcross]

That episode was written over half a century ago and times have changed

It's hardly unique to that example; I just used a TOS example to counter the "23rd century was different" argument being made higher up. DS9 season 7 continued that idea decades later, and it shows up constantly throughout Trek. If we are abandoning it now, I personally find that sad, especially given how much the producers go on about Genes Vision ™

There's also a difference between a clandestine but accountable and lawful service and an unaccountable genocide squad. It's the difference between German intelligence (legitimate) and the Einsatzgruppen (war crimes). Section 31 is the latter. It seems Discovery probably want to include the former, but went with the kewl moniker.

 

[Mechanoid1]

And what has Culber been eating all this time he was trapped in mycelial space?

Answer: Bark from the Yew tree.
Question: could spining the saucer section 180 degrees of gained additional time from the mycelial fungus?

 

[Greg Cox]

And given that I grew up on TNG first, I always thought of TOS as when 'they did things different back then,' because the 23rd century was very much a different time; captains went on away missions, you didn't spend your time ferrying diplomats, every border was a hostile one, etc. DSC adds to that, in that a shadow group that I know from the 24th century that can only operate in secret... was actually a government sanctioned group that operated out in the open. Obviously, this group's power and influence was diminished over time, to the point where they can only operate in hiding; I'm really interested in seeing how that happens.
.

That's an interesting perspective. As someone who grew up on TOS, I always found the 24th century of TNG to be a little too civilized and "idyllic" for my tastes. I prefer the Final Frontier to be a bit rougher around the edges and tend to smile at anything that scuffs the "utopian" sheen a bit.

Don't get me wrong. Doesn't mean I want Trek to get all dystopian. Just that I like STAR TREK best when humanity isn't perfect yet . . . which was very much part of TOS's "vision" back in the day. TOS had a very clear-eyed view of humanity's potential AND how far we still had to go. Society may evolve, but human nature doesn't.

Remember McCoy commenting that evil tends to triumph over good unless good is very, very careful? McCoy was a realist ...

 

[Noname Given]

And regarding the return of Culber, I have only this to say:

Roses are red
And violets, they ain't
I'm glad Culber's back
Buy why'd they show us his taint?

^^^
For better or worse - because they can, and censors won't cry foul.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

There are two things which annoyed me about this episode:
1. The close-up of MB running.
2. The exagerrated importance given to the character when she walks onto the bridge. Everyone stops what they are doing and comes to attention when MB appears.

I like it when MB is a person, when she comforts her friend Tilly for example.

 

[Campe]

There are two things which annoyed me about this episode:
2. The exagerrated importance given to the character when she walks onto the bridge. Everyone stops what they are doing and comes to attention when MB appears.

Yeah, that bugged me too. It was a little much.

 

[Gonzo]

It's hardly unique to that example; I just used a TOS example to counter the "23rd century was different" argument being made higher up. DS9 season 7 continued that idea decades later, and it shows up constantly throughout Trek. If we are abandoning it now, I personally find that sad, especially given how much the producers go on about Genes Vision ™

There's also a difference between a clandestine but accountable and lawful service and an unaccountable genocide squad. Section 31 is the latter. It seems Discovery probably want to include the former, but went with the kewl moniker.

For me the term clandestine and lawful don't really belong together, they act in secret precisely because they take actions that are legally dubious at best.

It's very much a case of the greater good.

Not a lot I can say Cultcross, its not the way you want it to be, personally I consider it to add depth and realism to the Star Trek universe, not to mention create lots of options for new stories moving forward.

 

[Noname Given]

I confess I wasn't buying that either. "Huh? Where did that come from?"

IDK - I think Tilly's initial reaction to 'May' was because she feared and didn't understand what May's 'plan' for Tilly was..IE "This
alien was just using me - get it out of me!"

Tilly pretty much had that reaction when she initially appeared out of the cocoon on the Mycelial side. HOWEVER once she understood the situation, she both felt sorry for May; and (being Tilly) wanted to help/correct the situation. IE Tilly realized May was just trying to save her own species from a situation the Discovery's use of the Spore drive introduced - so at that point she softened.
^^^
And that's just Tilly being Tilly. Remember, she was the first Discovery crew member to make friendly overtures to Burnham in Season one; even after Burnham confirmed "Yes...I'm THAT Burnham..."

So, in the end, Tilly bonding to a degree with May didn't bother me and I bought it.

 

[cultcross]

For me the term clandestine and lawful don't really belong together,

There are loads of things going on in the real world that are very secret but still have rigorous oversight and strict rules and guidance. Just because something is secret doesn't mean it's unethical or evil. The idea that the world is run through double-secret-black ops teams running around carrying out extrajudicial acts unspeakable in polite society is mostly just a fiction trope.

Not a lot I can say Cultcross, its not the way you want it to be, personally I consider it to add depth and realism to the Star Trek universe, not to mention create lots of options for new stories moving forw

That's fine; obviously I can only speak in opinions, I just do not like the idea that the organisation that will one day carry out the casual genocide of the Founders is presented as just another branch of the Starfleet that will sacrifice its own people rather than risk contaminating the evolution of another world. The two just don't gel for me - the Federation isn't and really was never a utopia, but it is presented as "we can be better than we are". Section 31 suggests we will actually end up worse.

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

That's an interesting perspective. As someone who grew up on TOS, I always found the 24th century of TNG to be a little too civilized and "idyllic" for my tastes. I prefer the Final Frontier to be a bit rougher around the edges and tend to smile at anything that scuffs the "utopian" sheen a bit.

Don't get me wrong. Doesn't mean I want Trek to get all dystopian. Just that I like STAR TREK best when humanity isn't perfect yet . . . which was very much part of TOS's "vision" back in the day. TOS had a very clear-eyed view of humanity's potential AND how far we still had to go. Society may evolve, but human nature doesn't.

Remember McCoy commenting that evil tends to triumph over good unless good is very, very careful? McCoy was a realist ...

In retrospect, yeah the 24th was a bit prissy, but I liked it just fine. It worked for the time that I watched the series, when I thought much more highly of mankind on a large scale, lol. It was a nice idea that humanity could get its shit together and be annoyingly loving to one another. I'm an adult now and I read the news; that theme ain't workin' for me anymore, haha. But as an adult, I do feel that humanity can make the right decisions over time, after learning from its mistakes by making the wrong, ends-justify-the-means decisions first. I feel like a lot of things going down around the world right now fall under 'worst case scenario' kind of thing and that we should be better coming out of it, the US in particular... That parallel is what makes DSC's TOS setting interesting, because I know it get's better for them; I want to believe it gets better for us.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

It was also written during the middle of the Vietnam war and mass race riots. The assumption that the world is somehow worse or more complex is the hubris of today, like how every generation assumes it invented sex.

Trek lasted because it chose — chose — optimism over pessimism.

I don't see the existence of section 31 as necessarily being pessimistic.
Our world has always had clandestine organizations, even during optimistic times.

 

[JoeZhang]

Something funny about this episode - Because we see Michael run from the Bridge and we can assume it happens directly after the Previous Episode - Reno must just decide to leave!

 

[JoeZhang]

I don't see the existence of section 31 as necessarily being pessimistic.
Our world has always had clandestine organizations, even during optimistic times.

Starfleet Intelligence itself has always carried out clandestine operations - The starting point for 'The Pegasus' is a spy finding out some useful information.

 

[zenophite]

That's fine; obviously I can only speak in opinions, I just do not like the idea that the organisation that will one day carry out the casual genocide of the Founders is presented as just another branch of the Starfleet that will sacrifice its own people rather than risk contaminating the evolution of another world. The two just don't gel for me - the Federation isn't and really was never a utopia, but it is presented as "we can be better than we are". Section 31 suggests we will actually end up worse.

For me one of the most powerful things Section 31 can provide from a dramatic standpoint is open up discussion of questions such as:

• What is truly moral or ethical?
• Are people necessarily evil because they have done things that can be termed as immoral or unethical?
• To what extent are our self perceptions about being moral and ethical people really true or false?

It's easy to say all the 'good guys' in Starfleet are always ethically and morally unambiguous - to some extent too easy. From my viewpoint the idea of "we can be better than we are" is a never ending process of becoming for an individual, a group, a nation, a society a world and so forth. That doesn't have to mean you won't ever face a moral and ethical quandary where the answer is always clear and always "by the rules." That's the sort of thing I'd like to see explored more instead of the 'good guys never do bad things' sort of approach.

 

[Jadeb]

I don't see the existence of section 31 as necessarily being pessimistic.
Our world has always had clandestine organizations, even during optimistic times.

I don’t mind clandestine, but I dislike clandestine and morally compromised. At least in Trek.