Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x05 - "Saints of Imperfection"

[F. King Daniel]

Really enjoyed this episode. More please.

The network being depicted as an enchanted forest being besieged by a monster was epic. The visuals were amazing, the characters were mostly great. Emotional stuff. The best use if Section 31 in Disco yet (although I am not a fan of Mirror Georgiou)

The only issue I have is Hugh being reborn into a new body via technobabble Daft as it sounds when we're talking about a magical forest, it seemed too much. I was hoping he'd live on as a Mae-like spore in Stamets' head.

 

[BigDaveX]

Bashir: Bever heard of it.

Sloan: We keep a low profile.... We search out and identify potential dangers to the Federation.

Bashir: And Starfleet sanctions what you’re doing?

Sloan: we’re an autonomous department.

Bashir: Authorized by whom?

Sloan: Section Thirty-One was part of the original Starfleet charter.

Bashir: That was two hundred years ago. Are you telling me you’ve been on your own ever since? Without specific orders? Accountable to nobody but yourselves?

Sloan: Actually everyone knew about us a hundred years ago. I don’t get why everyone forgot.

In fairness, Pike knew of Section 31 because he had a personal contact within it, and I could buy that they might have attempted to recruit Burnham after the Shenzhou incident, but it'd have been nice if they made the latter clear.

 

[Rahul]

This episode was really bad. We're to believe people in the Star Trek universe have souls and Stamets plucked his lovers soul after death and it was given a new mushroom body in the mushroom universe? Dumb.

Also the aliens can make transporters and clone bodies in 60 seconds but cant deal with someone wearing bark? Also dumb.

This was less believable fantasy than anything in Star Wars.

Perhaps you need to go back and check out some of the other 'Waaay Out There' Things that Trek has shown us in the past?
This isn't any more outrageous than say, a Salt Vampire, a Being (ODO) made entire of Play-dough or even Whoopie Goldberg playing an Existential Alien Bartender.
(just to name a few)

Is it possible that you've got just a tad bit of enmity toward this particular show and thus may be less forgiving?

You know, I kinda' have to agree with both of you!
I think the enjoyment of this episode reeeaally depends on personal preferences.

Like, if you enjoy tough, "realistic" character and war drama like on DS9 or what DIS season 1 intended (and IMO mostly failed at) - this episode might not be for you. This episode demands of the viewer to accept A LOT of schlock-y science and handwaving logic issues away.

But on the other hand, this is also what Trek has for the most part always been on television - and this one was really imaginative and out there, so much so that I'm personally very easy to forgive a few inconsistencies.

As is, this episode (hell, this entire season) really digs deep into what I personally love to see in a Trek show - a sense of adventure, exploring the unknown, and that means manifestation of weird shit and crazy ideas, surrounded by realistic character drama and rules. This is my jam. And this season mostly nailed it so far. But I reckon that Trek as a franchise has become so big, that other people might truly prefer completely different storylines, and some parts of this episode might be a hard sell in this regard.

 

[GeorgeKirk]

Okay, I have no problem with Michael Burnham even if her connection to Spock as his never-mentioned stepsister is unnecessarily fan-fiction-y, but I'm getting tired of her Grey's Anatomy-style voiceovers. I mean, "Data's Day" was a good episode, but not every episode should be "Data's Day." I hope very much that they're a Harberts/Berg thing that goes away when we move past the episodes they were involved with.

And regarding the return of Culber, I have only this to say:

Roses are red
And violets, they ain't
I'm glad Culber's back
Buy why'd they show us his taint?

 

[Amaris]

Okay, I have no problem with Michael Burnham even if her connection to Spock as his never-mentioned stepsister is unnecessarily fan-fiction-y, but I'm getting tired of her Grey's Anatomy-style voiceovers. I mean, "Data's Day" was a good episode, but not every episode should be "Data's Day." I hope very much that they're a Harberts/Berg thing that goes away when we move past the episodes they were involved with.

And regarding the return of Culber, I have only this to say:

Roses are red
And violets, they ain't
I'm glad Culber's back
Buy why'd they show us his taint?

You hesh. It was a beautiful moment of rebirth and nothing else!

 

[pallas]

Perhaps you need to go back and check out some of the other 'Waaay Out There' Things that Trek has shown us in the past?
This isn't any more outrageous than say, a Salt Vampire, a Being (ODO) made entire of Play-dough or even Whoopie Goldberg playing an Existential Alien Bartender.
(just to name a few)

Is it possible that you've got just a tad bit of enmity toward this particular show and thus may be less forgiving?

You're making a lot of assumptions about me.

I really don't think Guinan (?!?) of all things is remotely as implausible as plucking up Culber's soul and dropping it in a mushroom body. Not sure why you picked that example.

I think ODO as a concept isn't silly but the founders are silly when we are meant to believe that the federation can't just have the Betazoid's detect all the shapeshifters. (Hint: Have a Betazoid look for the people whose minds they can't read. If they can't read their mind, they are a member of Odo's species or a Ferengi. If the founders were in Next Generation they would have been defeated in a two part episode, it should be easy.)

But in the best "silly" episodes, if you encounter something silly it has something interesting to say as a metaphor at least. This episode was conceived as a pretty contrived reason to bring a character back. The only deeper aspect was some sort of believe in the afterlife being proven by the conservation of energy (implausible and dumb) and a silly cliche ("to him, you are the monsters"!) that was reminiscent of a joke on Futurama (Bender says "Who's the real seven billion ton robot monster here? Not I.")

 

[The Habs Fan]

You're making a lot of assumptions about me.

I really don't think Guinan (?!?) of all things is remotely as implausible as plucking up Culber's soul and dropping it in a mushroom body. Not sure why you picked that example.

I think ODO as a concept isn't silly but the founders are silly when we are meant to believe that the federation can't just have the Betazoid's detect all the shapeshifters. (Hint: Have a Betazoid look for the people whose minds they can't read. If they can't read their mind, they are a member of Odo's species or a Ferengi. If the founders were in Next Generation they would have been defeated in a two part episode, it should be easy.)

But in the best "silly" episodes, if you encounter something silly it has something interesting to say as a metaphor at least. This episode was conceived as a pretty contrived reason to bring a character back. The only deeper aspect was some sort of believe in the afterlife being proven by the conservation of energy (implausible and dumb) and a silly cliche ("to him, you are the monsters"!) that was reminiscent of a joke on Futurama (Bender says "Who's the real seven billion ton robot monster here? Not I.")

Spock's resurrection was much more ridiculous than Culber, but YMMV

 

[Nerys Myk]

Okay, I have no problem with Michael Burnham even if her connection to Spock as his never-mentioned stepsister is unnecessarily fan-fiction-y,

It's very pro-fictiony. The previously unmentioned relative is all over fiction. Star Trek alone has given us Spock's brother, Scotty's nephew, Worf's brother, McCoy's daughter and Sulu's daughter. To name a few

 

[zenophite]

It's very pro-fictiony. The previously unmentioned relative is all over fiction. Star Trek alone has given us Spock's brother, Scotty's nephew, Worf's brother, McCoy's daughter and Sulu's daughter. To name a few

To me the main reason why I think it's less believable is that Burnham is a Starfleet officer and as such it seems more than likely that they'd have such a relationship noted in her official record - especially as it has become relevant to a variety of goings on i.e. the red signals. All of these things would almost certainly have to be noted at some point on mission reports. In this case it's not up to Spock to reveal or not reveal it like with the other family revelations.

Now sure, we can easily say that it was known 'off camera' and simply never mentioned or maybe they'll want to play the game of pulling the section 31 card and "all such information shall be scrubbed" but that would be a cop out IMO.

I wouldn't usually let such a thing get in the way of a good story but in this case I can't see the newly revealed relationship as anything more than a gimmick to get people to like the show from the starting gate. What makes matters worse is that, for me, there's nothing particularly noteworthy in terms of story that has resulted from this development.

 

[Mr Awe]

Wow! Fantastic episode. I give a 9. Best of the season. One of the best of the series. Both the interpersonal drama and survival tensions were top notch. You can see the wheels turning in Pike's head as wonders what kind of ship/situation has he gotten into! I enjoyed the spore side of the story too, which isn't always the case. And, Culbur is back! There was a bit of hand waving about how he survived in the first place, but okay, I can accept it.

It just felt like the episode was firing on all cylinders. All the parts worked together perfectly (Georgiou, Ash, S31, Spores and the network, May, crew interactions, creative use of a biological transporter, etc) such that the total was greater than the sum of the parts. Lots going on but it all gelled together! Well done!

I didn't give it a 10 because I give only a handful of 10s throughout the entire history of ST! This one wasn't quite at that exceptionally rare level, but it was outstanding.

 

[Jadeb]

You know, I kinda' have to agree with both of you!
I think the enjoyment of this episode reeeaally depends on personal preferences.

Like, if you enjoy tough, "realistic" character and war drama like on DS9 or what DIS season 1 intended (and IMO mostly failed at) - this episode might not be for you. This episode demands of the viewer to accept A LOT of schlock-y science and handwaving logic issues away.

But on the other hand, this is also what Trek has for the most part always been on television - and this one was really imaginative and out there, so much so that I'm personally very easy to forgive a few inconsistencies.

As is, this episode (hell, this entire season) really digs deep into what I personally love to see in a Trek show - a sense of adventure, exploring the unknown, and that means manifestation of weird shit and crazy ideas, surrounded by realistic character drama and rules. This is my jam. And this season mostly nailed it so far. But I reckon that Trek as a franchise has become so big, that other people might truly prefer completely different storylines, and some parts of this episode might be a hard sell in this regard.

Yeah. How goofy is too goofy? That's an individual judgment call. But fandom long ago accepted there's a breaking point. After all, we've spent 50 years mocking Spock's Brain.

As an aside, was anyone else reminded of the TNG effects when the fugitive shuttle was zipping around on the viewscreen? It just seemed clumsy, in a '90s sort of way. In an episode that was very impressive visually, that was an odd outlier for me. (Though, I must admit, it was so retro it was kinda charming.)

 

[Nerys Myk]

To me the main reason why I think it's less believable is that Burnham is a Starfleet officer and as such it seems more than likely that they'd have such a relationship noted in her official record -

Like the way Sarek being the Vulcan Ambassador was front and center in Spock's records and someone would have to be a idiot not to know?

Was there something to indicate that Burnham and Spock's relationship isn't in her file? (Or his for that matter?)

 

[Mr Awe]

I guess we're just going to have to get used to Section 31 being as well known as the CIA, in this show's take on Trek lore.

I think there's a spectrum of "cowboy diplomacy" in Starfleet history. S31 is a wilder form of cowboy diplomacy but fits better with this era of looser rules than Trek series that take place later in the timeline. So, it's outside the norm, but less in Disco's era than later eras.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

This episode was really bad. We're to believe people in the Star Trek universe have souls and Stamets plucked his lovers soul after death and it was given a new mushroom body in the mushroom universe? Dumb.

First David Bowie, and now Mario Bros. confirmed canon. This is a great couple of weeks for my childhood nostalgia.

 

[Greg Cox]

When did May and Tilly form such a deep bond? It seemed like just a couple episodes ago, Tilly couldn't wait to get rid of her.

I confess I wasn't buying that either. "Huh? Where did that come from?"

 

[Mr Awe]

This is I think three episodes in a row now where we get gravitas-laden speeches about how important Spock is, and how the red signals are this big situation, and blah blah, but there's no movement on that story at all. It's just there to keep reminding us that, oh yeah, Star Trek is seralized now, how about that.

That's the one downside of this season for me. It's serialized, but not very well serialized. We got talk and some stories early about Spock, signal, and angel, but since then it's been mainly teases while other stories were going on. Last weeks episode was particularly scattered.

But, most of the stories have been good to great, so I'm not really complaining. But, soon it will be time to find Spock or it will start being ridiculous.

 

[Tuskin38]

The Section 31 stuff made no sense and for me reinforces the non-Prime argument.

31 are not Federation Black Ops. The Federation has Starfleet Intelligence for that. Section 31 is a SECRET organization. (Also defeats the purpose of having INSIGNIA broadcasting to the universe that you're a super-duper hush-hush kill-kill strut-strut organization...well, maybe not that last part...) They're also genocidal. (You know, the thing Season 1 told us was bad?)

And of course Pike and Leland knew each other.

What's that supposed to be? The Light and Dark sides of the Starfleet Force? Give me a break, guru.

The whole point of Star Trek's...now lip-service is the better future, yet its low-hanging-fruit-reaching writers come up with the most mundane ways to come up with drama THAT UNDERCUT THE ENTIRE IDEA THAT YOU CAN BE COMPETENT AND GOOD. You know, Star Trek.

We don’t know anything about S31 in the 23rd century. This doesn’t contradict prime yet.

 

[zenophite]

Like the way Sarek being the Vulcan Ambassador was front and center in Spock's records and someone would have to be a idiot not to know?

I'm talking about Starfleet records specifically not all manner of Federation-wide records. Sarek is an Ambassador of a sovereign government not a Starfleet officer. It seems more reasonable to me that Spock could withhold the details of his parentage or explicitly prevent it from from becoming public for obvious security reasons.

Was there something to indicate that Burnham and Spock's relationship isn't in her file? (Or his for that matter?)

Implicitly, yes I believe so. One of the major themes (if not the major one) around Spock's character from TOS onward is the duality between his emotional side and logical side. This is made even more relevant with the revelation that he is half-human. Given the ribbing he's always getting from McCoy and the fact that the emotion vs logic thing comes up so often it seems less plausible to me that such an thing as a human foster sister would not come up at some point within the scope of the stories that have been told.

 

[Sakonna]

Nhan is now Head of Security? That's a change from being called an engineering officer in the premiere. But I'll accept it. Hopefully she fares better than Landry.

She was saying security things last week, too - i guess we'll have to believe that identifying her as an engineer in "Brother" was a ruse.

Or I could believe she just transferred to another department. We saw Worf doing some engineering tasks in his season 1 role as Fill-In Guy before becoming Security Chief.

The only issue I have is Hugh being reborn into a new body via technobabble Daft as it sounds when we're talking about a magical forest, it seemed too much. I was hoping he'd live on as a Mae-like spore in Stamets' head.

That seems just too nightmarish an existence for this show. IIRC, that's the premise of a "Black Mirror" episode, keeping a dead lovers consciousness alive within your own mind. As usual on "Black Mirror", it... did not turn out well.

 

[XCV330]

I wish Culber had had a spore-ball friend named Wilson he carried around with him through the spore fields.