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Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x05 - "Saints of Imperfection"

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It's a testament to Discovery that the show told us all we needed to know to essentially predict how Culber would be saved way back in "The Wolf Inside." I've been suggesting that there was a missing scene in which Stamets holds the dying Culber and takes him into the network (Tilly's line that "That is not Paul Stamets" kind of set it up nicely), and it's nice to see that I wasn't crazy.

About Section 31: there seems to be some discomfort with their portrayal, but honestly? They've never been particularly secret. Heck, the entire senior staff of Deep Space Nine knew about Section 31. Sisko, Kira, Odo, Dax, Bashir, and O'Brien. The Section 31 of DS9 is ruthlessly effective, but also willing to expose itself to the most vital political and military actors in the Federation simply for the sake of recruiting a single person. They have admirals working with them. They are literally in the Federation Charter. They're a very open secret.

I'm reminded of the classic Le Guin short story, "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas," in which the narrator describes a perfect utopia maintained only by the existence of one child in one cellar who suffers endlessly so that tranquility and idealism can be maintained. Everyone at some point goes to see the child and accepts its suffering as necessary for the continuation of utopia. But some people leave the utopia and walk away. What happens to those who walk away?

I suspect that the story Disco is telling is the story of those who walked away. I suspect that we're seeing an infinitely more realistic Section 31--one that a lot of people know about and choose to ignore--that even DS9 was too romantic to fully acknowledge. Maybe Disco is where the Federation rejects Section 31, sending it into a state of rogue disorder. But I'd contend that Section 31 was never all that unknown, and that the gulf between their presence in DS9 and Disco is fairly narrow, and explainable by the intervening century and even a slightly change in their status.

Edit: typo
 
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Hmmnnn....
So much to take in, a bit overwhelming.
I'm going with a 5 after the first viewing...

It'll probably go up with each future viewing as I am able to ingest what I've seen more clearly.

There's nothing in this episode I don't like, it's just very convoluted in my head at the moment.
:mallory:
 
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:rommie::rofl::lol::guffaw:
 
@Midquest the Deep Space nine crew didn't know about Section 31 until Dr. Bashir told them about them.

Deep Space Nine crew didn't know that there had ever been smooth foreheaded Klingons. FYI, there is lots of information that isn't readily available to people in the 24th century Utopia full of contented people, but that is expected, after all, as Douglas Adams pointed out, the best way to never be discontented with your lot, is to not have a word for it.
 
Hmmnnn....
So much to take in, a bit overwhelming.
I'm going with a 5 after the first viewing...

It'll probably go up with each future viewing as I am able to ingest what I've seen more clearly.

There's nothing in this episode I don't like, it's just very convoluted in my head at the moment.
:mallory:

Don't be worried, lots of people are still having trouble wrapping their heads around how to get many Disco eps the first time around.
 
I think having Cornwell (Or is it Cornwall?) telling him during that meeting would have calmed that criticism of mine a great deal.
They are obviously saving that "Tale" for Michael to explain to him.
Probably just as they actually find Spock.
:cool:
 
Nothing beats a A View to a Kill, where Roger Moore says "I'm James Bond", and some stupid Cop sarcastically says, "Well, I'm Dick Tracy and you're still under arrest!" before Roger Moore (I'm not calling him Bond) makes a run for it.

I will admit Moore was a better Saint than Bond, and even a better Bond in the film Ffolkes than he ever was in the Bond franchise, AFAIC, if any other post Connery Bond actor can be called Bond, IMHO, so can Moore. But, you are entitle to your opinion. Me, I might draw the line at Woody Allen, though.
 
And the Emperor of Many Names continues to be the best character on the show. I will forever be grateful the producers of Disco convinced Michelle Yeoh to join the series. I am looking forwards to the sparks continue to fly now that Section 31 is getting fully involved.
 
It's worth revisiting this bit from "Vaulting Ambition" to see how it plays with what we got here. I think it tracks pretty well.

Stamets: My partner is dead, my life's work has been a waste, what I knew to be beautiful is hostile, and the mycelial network is hell.
Culber: No, Paul. You were right: the network is a gift. It's the thread that weaves life through space.

Culber: You're in a coma on the Discovery, and the simplest way back is just to open your eyes.
Stamets: I don't want to say good-bye.
Culber: It's never good-bye. Isn't that what you've been trying to teach all of us? Nothing in here is ever truly gone. I believe in you, Paul. I love you.

It seems that Culber believes that Stamets will get it and come back for him. What a tragic story.
 
I think the writers really fucked up last season by peppering in virtually irredeemable characteristics into the Emperor.

It would have been better to have Lorca's coup be motivated by the idea that Georgeau was "soft and weak" but MU standards, and not have her painted in such an unpleasant light.

I like the idea of kind of "soft rebooting" that element of the character, and turning her into someone who, while still being extremely dangerous and morally questionable, is still redeemable and starts to see the value of our universe.

It's almost how the Q character evolved on TNG.

One of the few way too survive surrounded by monsters is to be a monster too. Does that mean the Emperor of Many Names wanted to be a Monster? Or even enjoyed being a monster as well? It seems we are finding out that might not have been the case.
 
One of the few way too survive surrounded by monsters is to be a monster too. Does that mean the Emperor of Many Names wanted to be a Monster? Or even enjoyed being a monster as well? It seems we are finding out that might not have been the case.

Either that or she smart enough to know that When in Rome...

Georgieu wants to have fun, but she knows that there's a limit to just how much Admiral Cornwall will tolerate her MU tendencies.
So she's on a learning curve and is using Michael as her Rosetta Stone.
:techman:
 
I liked it.

As I expected Section 31 is very much active in this time period, will go underground later.

The resurrection of Culber I thought was handled decently. Probably more plausible that Spock's resurrection.

"will you take my hand" should have been the title of this episode.
 
Well, this was the second episode in a row that caused me to tear up a little, though I liked "An Obol for Charon" better.

I'm glad Culber is back as a flesh and blood human and I'm happy that the explanation for how he was brought back was a lot less "woo" than perhaps some people feared... i.e., it's kind of a relief to now know that Star Trek isn't going all mystical by treating the mycelial network like some kind of supernatural realm or actual factual afterlife, but rather, that there was a scientific basis of sorts for Hugh's continued existence.

When did May and Tilly form such a deep bond? It seemed like just a couple episodes ago, Tilly couldn't wait to get rid of her.
 
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Maybe at this time it is officially sanctioned but by the 24th century it’s further underground. For example, maybe they do something very bad and it’s exposed (maybe it comes close to starting a war) and Starfleet is forced to disavow and dismantle Section 31. But secretly except to a select few, it still operates. We haven’t seen it in the 23rd century. It could be more like Starfleet Inteigence at this point and then not officially sanctioned and more secretive 100 years later.

well i'm pretty disturbed with Admiral Cornwall and starlet being OK with Nationbuilding, its bad enough we do it in our own reality
 
This one gets a 9/10 from me.

I WOULD have given it a 10 EXCEPT all the needless exposition between Stamets/Culber/Burnham WHILE THE SHIP IS BEING DESTROYED and everyone on the Bridge is saying "We need to go...NOW!" was ridiculous. Express your love and have your reunion AFTER the ship is safe. Geez. :)

Liked:
- The way Pike disabled the shuttle and that whole sequence. It wasn't just your simple "Put a Tractor Beam on it and pull it in..." stuff we saw ad-nauseum in Berman era Trek.

- That is was Terran Georgiou in the shuttle.

- Michelle Yeoh as Terran Gergiou (Bring on the 'Section 31' series):techman:

- That Pike picked up on Burnham's reactions and also (based on knowing the PU Gergiou a bit from his academy days knew something was not right.

- That Pike UNDERSTOOD "Chain of Command" when Burnham told him it was classified; and didn't have a meltdown like a certain "holier than thou" 24th Century Captain did (I'm referring to TNG S7 - "The Pegasus") when his Exec said "The Admiral told me not to discuss it.." But, I ALSO liked that Burnham after some reflection and knowing the rules Pike had broken for her and Amanda to get info on Spock was willing to discuss it, but given the circumstances they were in, she promised to tell him later; and I LOVED his comment of "Okay but don't make me chase after you for it.."

- That (small universe or not) Leland and Pike know each other and have a history of sorts. LOVED the friendly jabs back and forth between them as well in the Holocomm scene between them.

- That both the Admiral and Pike are pragmatic enough to realize that yes, sometimes the stuff Section 31 does IS necessary for the continued existence, expansion and protection of the Federation. Again, this IS the 23rd century Trek mentality, and not the oh so holier than thou attitude displayed by Picard and his ilk in the 24th century. As a TOS fan, it's refreshing and welcome. (and I know for TNG era fans YMMV in a major way here ;) And again, sorry, but welcome to how some of us TOS era fans felt in 1987 when the 'new/current' Star Trek show did reflect the version of Star Trek we would have liked. :nyah:)

- That Cuber's 'resurrection wasn't just as simple as him walking through a portal. As some others have mentioned, the whole thing was honestly less of a stretch then Spock being rejuvenated and aged to the near exact age he was because of the 'fast evolution of the Genesis planet AND the Vulcans having a way to restore the Katra of a dead Vulcan stored in a non-Vulcan brain.

Disliked:
- The long exposition between Culber and Stamets given the situation that they were in with the ship. Like I said in my opening paragraph; that made zero sense.

Also, I don't think Terran Georgiou is becoming 'kinder/gentler' towards Burnham. She's not swayed by sentiment in the least so if she was willing to risk herself (and even politely threaten her own Superior, Leland) - it's because she has some ulterior motive that (for whatever reason) she needs Burnham to accomplish.
 
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