Man, I loved that movie when it came out.
Went and saw it three times.
I watched it again a few years back after Interstllar came out. Still think its the better picture of the two.
Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x03 - "Point of Light"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
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I watched it again a few years back after Interstllar came out. Still think its the better picture of the two.
People were just dying to work on the CygnusMan, I loved that movie when it came out.
Went and saw it three times.
Or... we just forget that this shitty Augment storyline ever existed
I loved the robots V.I.N. CENT and Old B.O.B.
You certainly can't go wrong with the casting of Roddy McDowell and Slim Pickens where it comes to voice casting, now can you?
Not so far off from TV newsrooms of today.No. THIS bridge is too big.
Watched it last night, and...
I thought the Starfleet stuff was solid. Probably a 6 or 7.
The Klingon stuff. That was just plain bad. My wife busted out laughing when L'Rell announced her new title. Probably a 2 or a 3.
I just hope they don't fall into the same trap they did during the first half of season one. Whenever the Starfleet stuff started getting interesting, they would shift to the Klingons and totally kill whatever interest I had.
I thought the Starfleet stuff was solid. Probably a 6 or 7.
The Klingon stuff. That was just plain bad. My wife busted out laughing when L'Rell announced her new title. Probably a 2 or a 3.
I just hope they don't fall into the same trap they did during the first half of season one. Whenever the Starfleet stuff started getting interesting, they would shift to the Klingons and totally kill whatever interest I had.
Technically, yes. (If that be the approach taken by a given copyright holder and/or production team, that is.)
But it's always open to interpretation—and reinterpretation—in context of the rest of the canon, as well as that of the real-world circumstances that led to it being presented onscreen as it was. And there's no statute of limitation on that, nor any guaranteed protection against double jeopardy. There are no rules, except the ones they make up for themselves as they go along. One production team's intent (or lack thereof) isn't immutably binding on the next. They can adhere to it as much or as little as they like. And they are free to change their minds as many times as they like.
Within the fictional universe, was the Brattain's hull actually painted with Brittain instead, and did the Yamato and Prometheus actually have multiple registry numbers, or do we ignore those because they were production errors? Did all those re-uses of alien ship models in TNG/DS9/VGR/ENT actually look the same, or were they merely "standing in" for many different ones, as the remastered version of TOS implies they might well be? Did Kirk and Picard's Enterprises actually change in their details and proportions between camera shots? Did Worf and Ro's forehead ridges actually change in shape and size as they matured, or was their makeup merely refined? Did Kirk actually switch middle initials? Did Starfleet actually abolish their sole death penalty regulation and then establish another a couple of years later? Did noncom O'Brien actually receive a battlefield commission to ensign, and a promotion to lieutenant, that he later lost? Possibly. Possibly not. It's sort of a Schrödinger's cat situation. Only a future production could say one way or another, and even in the unlikely scenario of such coming to pass, a succeeding one might answer differently yet again.
Whether a production takes the greatest of pains to avoid them, or the slightest, contradictions in canon are inevitable. One can choose to resolve them, ignore them, embrace them, celebrate them, magnify them out of all proportion, mock them, get offended by them, whatever. It's fiction, so it's ultimately up to you as the viewer to make of it what you will. Whatever approach any one of us takes, others will disagree and take another.
And I don't have any problem with that at all. In my opinion, there was never anything "wrong" with the idea that Klingons have ships called "warbirds." However, it is a fact that some fans did have a problem with it, and that Brannon Braga stated it was "an honest mistake" in response. The fact that a later production decided to run with it anyway was their prerogative, just as it would have been not to.
The name K't'inga itself may not be canon—and I wasn't suggesting it is, even though that's what the production teams of TNG and DS9 called the TMP design, apparently because that's what Roddenberry called it in his novelization of the film (after they were initially referred to as Koro class in the original "In Thy Image" script)—but your conclusion does not necessarily follow from this fact. It's merely your own personal interpretation of what's presented onscreen.
What's canon from "Prophecy" (VGR) is that Harry Kim of the starship Voyager identified an individual Klingon ship as a D-7 cruiser by the tetryon readings from its "antiquated" cloaking device, and that Tom Paris said in response that this was a class that had been retired decades earlier. Everything else is interpretation. For instance, it could be interpreted that these Klingons had fitted their vessel with a cloak from a previous class of ship, leading to a misidentification. Or it could be interpreted that Tom Paris was wrong about D-7s being retired (maybe he confused them with D-6s
). Or that the class was indeed retired, in the sense that the Klingons stopped building any new ones, but those that already existed continued to be used until they became unspaceworthy, etc.It's also canon that Kira in "Trials And Tribble-ations" (DS9) and Voyager's LCARS databate in "Drone" (VGR) and L'Rell in "Point Of Light" (DSC) refer to similar (but not identical) looking vessels as D-7 battlecruisers, and that the computer on Lorca's shuttle in "Choose Your Pain" (DSC) identifies a dissimilar-looking one by the same designation based on its warp signature.
It's not canon that all other ships represented by models or animations of similar configurations elsewhere are therefore also D-7s. (Just look at how no less than three separate classes of Klingon ship—B'rel, K'vort, and D-12—are represented by exactly the same miniature elsewhere.) I'm not suggesting it's a wholly unreasonable interpretation, mind you, but it is an interpretation.
Again, every succeeding production is entitled to revise continuity as they so desire. That's just the way serial fiction works, most especially in a franchise that spans more than half a century and has changed creative hands innumerable times. TOS revised its own continuity from page one, thus setting the precedent, and the process has never stopped. You know this.
Besides, if they were to adhere to the original intent of "Balance Of Terror" (TOS), that would be ignoring continuity just as much, or even more so. Archer and his crew encountered no less than four different varieties of cloak: the Suliban's, the Xyrillians' from "Unexpected" (ENT), and two different Romulan ones in "Minefield" (ENT). And Spock himself has seen invisibility accomplished at least twice before that point: by the Talosians in "The Cage"/"The Menagerie" (TOS) and the Thasians in "Charlie X" (TOS).
That's what makes it okay. Okay? Okay.
-MMoM
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I made this joke during my viewing of the season two trailers. Last time I made a joke early on, it turned out to be one hundred percent true in season one of DSC.
I think it’s possible Mickey and Spocky went too far....too pon Farr.
After this week, I'm not buying the "they fucked" stuff. Michael says she realised after the logic center bomb that she had to drive Spock away - as we saw last series, she was still a pre-teen when that bombing occurred.
And?
From the movie, PRIVATE PARTS:
Researcher: The average radio listener listens for eighteen minutes. The average Howard Stern fan listens for - are you ready for this? - an hour and twenty minutes.
Pig Vomit: How can that be?
Researcher: Answer most commonly given? "I want to see what he'll say next."
Pig Vomit: Okay, fine. But what about the people who hate Stern?
Researcher: Good point. The average Stern hater listens for two and a half hours a day.
Pig Vomit: But... if they hate him, why do they listen?
Researcher: Most common answer? "I want to see what he'll say next."
Boo.
And they actually already denied that happened. (I actually thought it might have happened too.)
A lot of people are setting themselves up to be disappointed in regards to Spock/Burnham.
Burnham said something to Spock or stopped him from doing something. And it was so important to Spock that he shut down and shut her out. It's something that bothered him enough that he committed himself. Something that touches his human blood. Like V'Ger did. Except it's Red Angels.
Burnham said something to Spock or stopped him from doing something. And it was so important to Spock that he shut down and shut her out. It's something that bothered him enough that he committed himself. Something that touches his human blood. Like V'Ger did. Except it's Red Angels.
Did we see any after Tyler came aboard? I only remember seeing them in "Context Is For Kings" (DSC), but maybe I forgot something.
I don't see any particular indication that the affliction would have altered their number of reproductive organs. Their biosigns still registered as Klingon. Phlox mentioned "changes of appearance" and "some minor neural re-ordering," but implied that this would be the extent of it. So it could have affected the size, shape, and even function (if that's what you mean by "half castrated") but it probably wouldn't "reduce" them in the same sense that Voq's were through his surgery. (But then, who knows?)
It's astounding to me that so many people seem to have forgotten this aspect of the story, incorrectly assuming that all Klingons would have been affected. It was initially only "millions," and while this number would surely multiply as they passed it to their offspring, it would still only amount to a fraction of the total Klingon population in the grand scheme of things.
I've thought that since "Lethe" (DSC). Great choice of casting.
And there's a lot more precedent than just that, too...
"Reunion" (TNG):
K'EHLEYR: In the modern Rite of Succession, only a brief proclamation that two challengers have been chosen is necessary.
PICARD: You said "modern" rite. How was the ritual performed in the past?
K'EHLEYR: The old forms dictated that the challengers perform the ja'chuq. It's a long, involved ceremony in which the challengers list the battles they've won, the prizes they've taken, the idea being to prove their worthiness to lead the Council.
PICARD: Can the old form still be used?
K'EHLEYR: It's up to you. You can use whatever form you want.
PICARD: You said "modern" rite. How was the ritual performed in the past?
K'EHLEYR: The old forms dictated that the challengers perform the ja'chuq. It's a long, involved ceremony in which the challengers list the battles they've won, the prizes they've taken, the idea being to prove their worthiness to lead the Council.
PICARD: Can the old form still be used?
K'EHLEYR: It's up to you. You can use whatever form you want.
"Blood Oath" (DS9):
DAX: And I know that a Klingon blood oath can never be broken.
KANG: The old Klingon ways are passing. There was a time, when I was a young man, the mere mention of the Klingon Empire made worlds tremble. Now, our warriors are opening restaurants and serving racht to the grandchildren of men I slaughtered in battle. Things are not what they used to be, not even the blood oath.
KANG: The old Klingon ways are passing. There was a time, when I was a young man, the mere mention of the Klingon Empire made worlds tremble. Now, our warriors are opening restaurants and serving racht to the grandchildren of men I slaughtered in battle. Things are not what they used to be, not even the blood oath.
"You Are Cordially Invited" (DS9):
DAX: ...but the second Dynasty ended when General K'Trelan assassinated Emperor Reclaw. For the next ten years, the Empire was ruled by a Council elected by the people. Modern-day Klingon historians refer to this as "The Dark Time," but it's interesting to note that this first and only experiment in Klingon democracy actually produced several reforms that—
SIRELLA: You are straying from the saga!
DAX: Am I?
SIRELLA: Your task is to recite the complete chronicle of the women in my family.
DAX: I just thought I'd give you a broader historical perspective along the way.
SIRELLA: I am familiar with Klingon history. Now, return to the story of my twenty-third maternal grandmother, Shenara, daughter of Emperor Reclaw in the Second Dynasty.
DAX: Well, that's where we run into a little bit of a problem. You see, I did some research, and when Emperor Reclaw was killed, all of the members of the Imperial Family were put to death, including Shenara. When the Third Dynasty was founded ten years later, a new group of Klingons were given the titles and the names of the original Imperial Family, to create the illusion of an unbroken line. So the woman that you think of as your twenty-third maternal grandmother isn't related to you at all. Your real ancestor's name was Karana, a concubine living outside the Imperial stables.
SIRELLA: [insistently] My grandmother's name was Shenara.
DAX: That may be what's been passed down from generation to generation, but it has no basis in fact. But who cares about facts? The chronicle says that you have imperial blood in your veins, and that's exactly what we'll keep telling everyone.
SIRELLA: You are straying from the saga!
DAX: Am I?
SIRELLA: Your task is to recite the complete chronicle of the women in my family.
DAX: I just thought I'd give you a broader historical perspective along the way.
SIRELLA: I am familiar with Klingon history. Now, return to the story of my twenty-third maternal grandmother, Shenara, daughter of Emperor Reclaw in the Second Dynasty.
DAX: Well, that's where we run into a little bit of a problem. You see, I did some research, and when Emperor Reclaw was killed, all of the members of the Imperial Family were put to death, including Shenara. When the Third Dynasty was founded ten years later, a new group of Klingons were given the titles and the names of the original Imperial Family, to create the illusion of an unbroken line. So the woman that you think of as your twenty-third maternal grandmother isn't related to you at all. Your real ancestor's name was Karana, a concubine living outside the Imperial stables.
SIRELLA: [insistently] My grandmother's name was Shenara.
DAX: That may be what's been passed down from generation to generation, but it has no basis in fact. But who cares about facts? The chronicle says that you have imperial blood in your veins, and that's exactly what we'll keep telling everyone.
"Judgment" (ENT):
KOLOS: But that was a long time ago, when the tribunal was a forum for the truth and not a tool for the warrior class.
ARCHER: There are other classes?
KOLOS: You didn't believe all Klingons were soldiers?
ARCHER: I guess I did.
KOLOS: My father was a teacher. My mother, a biologist at the university. They encouraged me to take up the law. Now, all young people want to do is take up weapons as soon as they can hold them. They're told there's honor in victory, any victory. What honor is there in a victory over a weaker opponent? Had Duras destroyed that ship, he would have been lauded as a hero of the Empire for murdering helpless refugees. We were a great society not so long ago, when honor was earned through integrity and acts of true courage, not senseless bloodshed.
ARCHER: There are other classes?
KOLOS: You didn't believe all Klingons were soldiers?
ARCHER: I guess I did.
KOLOS: My father was a teacher. My mother, a biologist at the university. They encouraged me to take up the law. Now, all young people want to do is take up weapons as soon as they can hold them. They're told there's honor in victory, any victory. What honor is there in a victory over a weaker opponent? Had Duras destroyed that ship, he would have been lauded as a hero of the Empire for murdering helpless refugees. We were a great society not so long ago, when honor was earned through integrity and acts of true courage, not senseless bloodshed.
We'll have to wait to see how it ultimately plays out onscreen, but it's worth noting that Ted Sullivan suggested way back before S1 had even aired that he was thinking of the baldness as being tied to the Klingons having "gone back to a puritan way of life" and living "by the rules of Kahless," and that in discussing the decision to bring back the hair for S2, Glenn Hetrick said he and others behind the scenes were "obsessed with" the story of Kahless "cutting off his hair, and dipping it into a volcano and forging the first bat'leth...and as we unpack it, we're going to find tons of other reasons for the Klingon look." We know from "Rightful Heir" (TNG) that this story isn't widely known by that time, so if the custom does turn out to be somehow connected to it, its being forgotten or suppressed could be likewise connected to it dying out.
Sources:
https://www.pressreader.com/australia/sfx/20170913/284034782121072
https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/emmy-...king-new-aliens-with-star-trek-discoverys-sfx
https://trekmovie.com/2018/08/06/st...r-star-trek-discovery-season-2-hints-at-hair/
https://trekmovie.com/2018/10/21/ge...ll-with-hair-in-star-trek-discovery-season-2/
Of course, going from being something emulated by most of mainstream Klingon culture to being something few Klingons are even aware of within a single Klingon lifetime would probably require some very deliberate purging and re-writing of history. Fortunately, we know the Klingons are in the habit of doing exactly that, not only by Sirella's example above, but Gowron's in "Unification" (TNG). And if there is a takeover of the Empire by Augments in between, that could help too. (Again, we'll have to wait and see what develops from here, though. Just speculating. Hetrick obviously isn't a writer, just a makeup designer, so it may turn out that what is actually written will be somewhat different to what he suggests, thus leading to a different interpretation. And even he suggests there may be "tons of other reasons" too.)
-MMoM
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I don't chew on NERDS, I just like to suck on them.
(and most of the time they are very appreciative of that)
And we've reached a level of uncomfortable even I don't usually achieve.
Yeah, no.
As long as that's the only bit of him that was touched.
During Season 1, one of the people on the show, I don't remember who, said that Enterprise made it hard for them to write some stories. I wouldn't be surprised if the augment arc was one of those things.
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