Fair enough. Different journey perhaps, same destination. It’s a conviction in both instances.
Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x15 - "Will You Take My Hand?"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
I'm sure the computer dematerializes it and recycles it for later reuse.
So what was the "big unseen event mentioned in TOS" that Disco's first season was supposedly about?
The Klingon "war"?
Certainly not the jaunt to the MU.
Wasn't Fuller the one who originally mentioned it? It might have just been dropped after he left.
So what was the "big unseen event mentioned in TOS" that Disco's first season was supposedly about?
The Klingon "war"?
Certainly not the jaunt to the MU.
The Battle of Donatu V in 2244? That's the best I've got to offer.
T'Kuvma mentioned it in the first episode, I believe, and that was an historic battle between the Federation and the Empire that Spock originally referred to in "The Trouble With Tribbles."
That's one thing that felt a little awkward with Discovery.
In "The Vulcan Hello", it's stated that the Federation has had no significant contact with the Klingon Empire in almost 100 years (2256 - almost 100 years = 2150s/2160s). No major battles or conflicts.
However, in Star Trek VI:
Again, TOS implies many times that conflict with the Klingons had been going on much earlier than 2256;
In "The Vulcan Hello", it's stated that the Federation has had no significant contact with the Klingon Empire in almost 100 years (2256 - almost 100 years = 2150s/2160s). No major battles or conflicts.
However, in Star Trek VI:
And as TUC takes place in 2293, subtracting almost seventy years would place whatever incident pisses off the Klingons in the 2220s.Star Trek VI said:
Again, TOS implies many times that conflict with the Klingons had been going on much earlier than 2256;
placing that in 2245.The Trouble with Tribbles said:
Well, I supposed you could Ben Kenobi this. I mean while Starfleet might not have had any conflict/contact, clearly the Vulcans/Sarek/The Burnhams have. And for all we know, the Klingons may have been nightly dinner table discussion in the Sarek household.
"The Vulcan Hello" seems to contradict itself in its own script:
(Paraphrasing)
GEORGIOU: Silly Michael, we haven't seen or heard from the Klingons since the fourth season of Enterprise, remember?
(later in the same episode)
T'KUVMA: Those disgusting smooth heads defeated us in that battle from the Tribble episode!
(Paraphrasing)
GEORGIOU: Silly Michael, we haven't seen or heard from the Klingons since the fourth season of Enterprise, remember?
(later in the same episode)
T'KUVMA: Those disgusting smooth heads defeated us in that battle from the Tribble episode!
"Hostility" is a relative term. Things were hostile between the US and USSR during the Cold War (the events that inspired and were directly reflected in TUC) but nukes never flew. Proxy wars popped up everywhere in southeast Asia and South America (as reflected in TOS episodes like "A Private Little War") but never escalated into a full-scale conflict between the major superpowers. This maintains Spock's summary statement as fitting well within established canon, with or without Discovery's relative retcon of historical events.
My own canon timeline based on my own fanfic and short stories over the years, which coincidentally just happen to mesh remarkably well with the new events established on DSC:
2223: The Klingons launch a brutal border raid on the Federation colony on planet Epsilon Tauri III, a world located in a system long claimed by the Empire. The raid leads to nearly 900 Federation citizens killed, wounded or missing and frenetic subspace negotiations (no face-to-face encounters occurred during this tragedy nor afterwards) narrowly avert all-out war between the two sides. The beginning of the 70 years of "unremitting hostility" referred to in TUC.
2234: The terror raid on Doctari Alpha.
2244 or 2245: The Battle of Donatu V.
2256: The Battle of the Binary Stars and the beginning of the Klingon War of 2256-57.
2223: The Klingons launch a brutal border raid on the Federation colony on planet Epsilon Tauri III, a world located in a system long claimed by the Empire. The raid leads to nearly 900 Federation citizens killed, wounded or missing and frenetic subspace negotiations (no face-to-face encounters occurred during this tragedy nor afterwards) narrowly avert all-out war between the two sides. The beginning of the 70 years of "unremitting hostility" referred to in TUC.
2234: The terror raid on Doctari Alpha.
2244 or 2245: The Battle of Donatu V.
2256: The Battle of the Binary Stars and the beginning of the Klingon War of 2256-57.
You're...absolutely right. That had not occurred to me at all (probably because I've suppressed most knowledge of Voyager ;-) ). I still think there's more than enough there to compare her to Wesley but, I have to admit, the comparison to Harry is probably more on-the-nose.
Quite true, and there's a perspective/hindsight bias issue here too. Spock is speaking from the end of an era of conflict which has, at least recently, included open hostilities. It is natural that he would project 'hostilities' back to include periods of intermittent or cold war which preceded his statement. In the same way as we, if we were concluding a peace treaty with Russia after a nuclear war in the future, would probably trace our 'unremitting hostilities' back to 1945 even though there had been quiet periods in between.
That's how I looked at it as well. The Federation President was hitting two birds with one stone, as well. Kirk, by remaining in the Admiralty, would be a waste of material and the proverbial pain in the arse. But by demoting him not one rank but two, they kicked him far away from Starfleet Command and regained a brilliant strategic and tactical commander. If they'd demoted him to Commodore, he'd still have a foot in the Admiralty and, thus, neither fish nor fowl.
The demotion also served to remind him, as the president said, of the importance of the chain of command. Was it a fig leaf? Perhaps. But dropping two ranks ain't exactly a slap on the wrist. They put Kirk exactly where they wanted him--back in the centre seat and out of their hair--and the fact that it served both the Admiralty's needs as well as Kirk's is purely coincidental. I figure if Kirk hated being captain they still would've put him back down. He was just too good at it and he was too poor at playing in the wholly political world of the GOFOs.
Incorrect. Article 94 of the Uniformed Code of Military Justice clearly points out that a single person can commit mutiny.
http://www.ucmj.us/sub-chapter-10-punitive-articles/894-article-94-mutiny-or-sedition
Now, granted, that's just the US Armed Forces. Others may differ.
from your link:
Any person subject to this chapter who– (1) with intent to usurp or override lawful military authority, refuses, in concert with any other person, to obey orders or otherwise do his duty or creates any violence or disturbance is guilty of mutiny
I see nothing in that link that says a single person can be a mutineer. it is always in concert with any other person
I assumed he meant the Klingon hot war, and why it was a cold war in TOS.So what was the "big unseen event mentioned in TOS" that Disco's first season was supposedly about?
The Klingon "war"?
Certainly not the jaunt to the MU.
It's been discussed a fair amount before now. Aside from a few additional descriptive details, we didn't really learn anything here that wasn't already established in "The Vulcan Hello" (DSC).
I think these sort of exchanges go a great distance further in establishing his character than telling us about his hobbies would...
"Choose Your Pain" (DSC):
BURNHAM: Are you really afraid of me?
SARU: I am not. I am angry at you. Angry because of how much you stole from me. I am deeply jealous that I never got the chance you had.
BURNHAM: To be Captain Georgiou's first officer?
SARU: You stood by her side and learned everything she had to teach. The anticipated scenario: you would move up and out, captain your own starship, and I would take your place. I never got that chance. If I had, I would have been more prepared for today.
BURNHAM: You did well. Very well.
SARU: [looks unconvinced]
BURNHAM: She would have thought so, too.
"Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum" (DSC):
BURNHAM: You weren't yourself.
SARU: But I was. We are born afraid, we Kelpians. It's how we survive. As such, my whole life, I have never known a moment without fear, the freedom of it. Not one moment, until Pahvo.
(And before someone says there's a contradiction between the two...no, Saru not being afraid of Burnham doesn't mean he is without fear at that moment.)
She used to go exclusively for soldiers, but was going through a musician phase in "Magic To Make The Sanest Man Go Mad" (DSC).
He says he's got an Uncle Everett who plays in a Beatles cover band in "Context Is For Kings" (DSC).
No, there only appears to be a contradiction if one disregards the important qualifiers in what is actually said, placed deliberately so by the writers...
GEORGIOU: Michael, almost no one has seen a Klingon in a hundred years.
BURNHAM: I have.
[...]
ANDERSON: Next time, you might try not disturbing the property of a warrior race we've hardly spoken to for a hundred years. Our only choice now is to navigate this situation with as much finesse as possible.
BURNHAM: Admiral, if I may, the ideal outcome for any Klingon interaction is battle. They're relentlessly hostile, Sir. It's in their nature.
ANDERSON: The Federation and the Klingon Empire have always been on the cold side of war. We've had only fleeting run-ins with them for a century, and now you presume to know their motivation, because it is in their nature?
If "almost no one has seen a Klingon in 100 years" that means at least a few people have. If the Feds have "hardly spoken to" them, that means they have spoken to them at least a bit. The Battle Of Donatu V, which was described by Spock as "inconclusive," is obviously another of the multiple "fleeting run-ins" mentioned by Anderson, like the earlier "terror raid" that orphaned Michael, which itself roughly coincides with the "almost seventy years of unremitting hostility" Spock cites in TUC. Between these sporadic encounters the Klingons remained "relentlessly hostile" toward the Federation. Imagine you only saw and/or spoke to someone a couple of times in decades, but they basically tell you they hate your guts every time. Unrelenting hostility, meaning an attitude or feeling of ill will, dislike, distrust. Not unrelenting hostilities, meaning frequent or constant fighting on a continual basis. In TOS the Organians imposed a peace treaty on the Feds and Klingons, and yet there remained a hostile atmosphere between them nevertheless!
-MMoM
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As has been discussed in other threads, under what charge does the Federation hold the Emperor? She has committed no crimes in the PU. In fact, the only evidence she has committed crimes in her universe is Burnham's word. They couldn't even charge her for swapping out the mapping drone for the hydro bomb as that was done as part of Starfleet's plan. Technically, the Emperor is completely innocent.
She didn't even come to the PU of her own volition. If Starfleet imprisoned her, it would be for what she might potentially do and that's rather fascist. Besides, letting her go is a much more interesting proposition than imprisonment.
Right. The Federation probably doesn't have any equivalent of Guantanamo Bay.
OTOH, the Discovery did bring back records of Terran Empire conduct. They could probably make charges of violating sentient rights exist... but not when they're denying that the MU even exists.
OTOH, the Discovery did bring back records of Terran Empire conduct. They could probably make charges of violating sentient rights exist... but not when they're denying that the MU even exists.
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Valid points, but it doesn't answer my question: how is Starfleet supposed to guard against the possibility that MU Georgiou will attempt to pose as her own counterpart?
That's a very real danger here. That's the main reason why it doesn't make sense that they'd just let her go scot-free.
And don't even TRY to tell me that the Emperor wouldn't try to pass herself off as her prime counterpart, because it's totally in her wheelhouse - as it would be for pretty much everyone in her universe. It's just what they do.
MU Georgiou knows that her counterpart is one of the most decorated captains in history, and (from her perspective) it wouldn't make sense NOT to try and take advantage of that. Starfleet can't just dismiss that possibility. So how are they supposed to deal with it?
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