Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x13 - "What's Past Is Prologue"

[Kane_Steel]

Well shit, if some randos on YouTube say it, it must be true. I withdraw my argument in light of this new evidence.

I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Locutus.

It's either anonymous randoms on some awkward fanfiction site, or Youtubers visible on YT. The fandom and the medium is changing. A term like Mary Sue isn't exclusive to fanfiction anymore. Sure some audiences use the term in a derogatory manner against female characters as a whole, but others use it in a more proper sense to criticize intentionally OP characters regardless of gender.

Sometimes terminology does indeed evolve over time. Seeing how heavily the term Mary-Sue was recently used across the web in regards to Rey, I think it's safe to say 'Mary Sue' is no longer confined to it's original parameters from within the world of fanfiction.

 

[Fateor]

I will make a recommendation, though, and ask that you read Mycelial Running by Dr. Paul Stamets. It is not only fascinating, but illuminating, and opens an entirely new world on our understanding of mycology and the backbone of the planet's organic communication network.

No thanks, I make it a point in life not to read books written by homeopathy people.

 

[lawman]

The producers and others affiliated with this show have mentioned their political stances and it's relation to the direction of the series in press junkets before. It's no secret. ... They are certainly aiming to elevate specific characters of gender and sexual orientation as heroes while intentionally bringing down others.

I really haven't followed all the press for this show, and in the long run the only evidence that matters concerning any "agenda" is what shows up on screen. I have heard and read a little suggesting that the producers want to have a diverse cast... but there's nothing wrong with that, nor even anything remotely new insofar as Star Trek is concerned. I haven't read anything about them wanting to "bring down others," and I'm curious what your source is for that. I certainly haven't seen any evidence of it in the show.

Bottom line, the only examples I've noticed of any sociopolitical agenda have been passing snippets of dialogue... like this week's on-the-nose allegory between mistreating the spore network and present-day climate change, or the way they made Lorca more obviously a racist asshole villain by having him sound like our current president. But those examples are cheap and easy writing, shooting fish in a barrel. They're not the same as working actual sociopolitical themes into the stories in any reasonably sophisticated way, which is what Trek is famous for and what I'd really like to see.

For Trek to remain relevant it has to tell modern stories, in a modern way, while still remains true to the ethos the series represents. Discovery does that...

Well, it has the potential to do that. IMHO this week's episode fell far, far short of that potential. It was, as many of us have pointed out, sheer formulaic schlock. Even those praising it seem to be doing so mostly because they think it had cool fight scenes.

 

[Lord Garth]

Burnham certainly IS a kind of Mary Sue.
Despite her f*cking up big time in the pilot - what she did was always the right choice, she was just wrong about the specifics on how to proceed.

How the Vulcans responded to the Klingons might not have worked if Starfleet tried. The Klingons probably viewed Vulcans as someone they could bully until the Vulcans stood up to them. That's how they gained respect.

Klingons don't view Starfleet as someone who they can pick on. They view them as a threat to their very existence and way of life. They see Starfleet as something they must destroy to preserve who they are. In such a case, preemptively attacking would not make the Klingons suddenly respect Starfleet.

Burnham's rationale was flawed because the situations and how the Klingons viewed Vulcans (in and of themselves and in the past) compared to Starfleet -- more precisely Humans -- is completely different.

Yes. Burnham is a Mary Sue. 100%, undeniable. But you know what? It's a Trek staple. The main character always is.

Mary Sue is putting yourself into the story. I can write a story about some space hero saving the galaxy but it's not Mary Sue. I'd be writing someone else, not putting myself into that story. I don't fantasize about going off into space and fighting bad guys. I'd go into space (if I could) to get away from all that nonsense. Not to go find more of it.

"Hero" and "Mary Sue" are not the same thing but if I wrote myself into an episode of DSC and I was showing everyone how to do their jobs, then that would be Mary Sue.

For Lorca and Tyler liking Burnham -- Lorca as it turns out, is twisted to be interested in anyone he thinks of as a daughter. As for Tyler, that never really went anywhere serious before the Voq reveal.

But let's go with taking on the role of being the Main Hero of the show...

The only difference seems to be that women (Janeway, Burnham) get critizised extra hard for it.

This is extremely true.

So far, it doesn't bother me. But if someone is put off by it, that is completely justifiable, because she is a Mary Sue. But by FAR not as much as the ultimate Trek hero: Kirk.

I like Kirk but I wouldn't want to be him. Or Spock. Or Burnham. Some people do, but that's more idolization. I don't need idols.

 

[AlanC9]

I watched a good deal of the videos and read many of the interviews in the run-up to the show's premiere and I don't remember the producers or actors "pushing" the diversity on the show. I recall media members ASKING about the diversity and the cast and staff responding. I got the feeling that it would not have come up if the reporters and interviewers hadn't asked about it.

But nobody ever really asks such questions. Clearly, those interviewers were all just plants, asking the questions the producers fed them in advance in order to push their nefarious agenda.

(Irony still works on this board, right?)

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I don't see Burnham as a Mary Sue. Not even close.

A Mary Sue is supposed to be somebody 1) who never makes mistakes, and 2) who everyone seems to fall in love with from the get-go. Burnham is clearly neither of these. She HAS made mistakes, and there are and probably will continue to be characters who actively dislike her.

 

[Tomalak]

It's either anonymous randoms on some awkward fanfiction site, or Youtubers visible on YT. The fandom and the medium is changing. A term like Mary Sue isn't exclusive to fanfiction anymore. Sure some audiences use the term in a derogatory manner against female characters as a whole, but others use it in a more proper sense to criticize intentionally OP characters regardless of gender.

Sometimes terminology does indeed evolve over time. Seeing how heavily the term Mary-Sue was recently used across the web in regards to Rey, I think it's safe to say 'Mary Sue' is no longer confined to it's original parameters from within the world of fanfiction.

So is Picard a Mary Sue?

He's a badass warrior, he was the only freshman to win the academy marathon, he's a wine connoisseur, quotes Shakespeare at length, speaks Klingon, is a renowned diplomat, is an amateur archaeologist who manages to make the greatest discovery in galactic history in his spare time, was one of Starfleet's youngest captains, is headhunted to raise the earth's ocean floor, is the captain of the Federation flagship, is quite the ladykiller, plays domjot like a hustler, and survived assimilation by the Borg.

And all this with an artificial heart.

 

[Kane_Steel]

James T. Kirk.
Will Riker. Sisko. Janeway. Hell, even Archer at times.

I can't speak for Janeway, as I haven't seen a lot of Voyager in a while and I know her character changed over time.

Kirk, Riker, Sisko and Archer were never praised as the scientific prodigies that Burnham is regarded as. Look at the way Lorca ruined his whole plan just to have her and her 'mind' in yesterday's episode, it was really over the top.

Kirk and Sisko especially were very flawed characters, but awesome as a result. Sisko being the most grounded at fist. I especially like the first impression he made in Emissary, a very stark contrast to Picard;

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[Amaris]

No thanks, I make it a point in life not to read books written by homeopathy people.

I don't recall recommending it to you.

 

[ItIsGreen]

CBA to read 44 pages of arguments about what is/isn't a Mary Sue.

Just came to say I mostly loved this episode, though rather disappointed Lorca turned out to be such a moustache-twirling villain, and rather annoyed at his (imho) premature death.

A few niggles, such as how quickly Saru and the crew believe Burnham about Lorca (though, on the other hand, she has proven herself to be trustworthy throughout the series and always acted with the best interests of the ship at heart, so what reason would she have to lie?). Likewise I understand Burnham's desire to save Georgiou, but as others have said, what are they going to do with a deposed dictator? Throw her in the brig with the Klingon spy, I suppose.

Thought the effects were great, enjoyed finally getting more than the briefest of brief shots of Disco flying about.

On the whole, thought the episode was great. Think the whole series has been pretty great, once it found its feet. I'm enjoying it very much, and will be sad in two weeks when the season's over.

 

[Amaris]

CBA to read 44 pages of arguments about what is/isn't a Mary Sue.

Just came to say I mostly loved this episode, though rather disappointed Lorca turned out to be such a moustache-twirling villain, and rather annoyed at his (imho) premature death.

A few niggles, such as how quickly Saru and the crew believe Burnham about Lorca (though, on the other hand, she has proven herself to be trustworthy throughout the series and always acted with the best interests of the ship at heart, so what reason would she have to lie?). Likewise I understand Burnham's desire to save Georgiou, but as others have said, what are they going to do with a deposed dictator? Throw her in the brig with the Klingon spy, I suppose.

Thought the effects were great, enjoyed finally getting more than the briefest of brief shots of Disco flying about.

On the whole, thought the episode was great. Think the whole series has been pretty great, once it found its feet. I'm enjoying it very much, and will be sad in two weeks when the season's over.

Indeed. It has been really nice to be discussing new Star Trek again.

 

[Tomalak]

Kirk, Riker, Sisko and Archer were never praised as the scientific prodigies that Burnham is regarded as. Look at the way Lorca ruined his whole plan just to have her and her 'mind' in yesterday's episode, it was really over the top.

Huh? That's what it comes down to? She's good at science?

She went to the Vulcan Science Academy, of course she's good at science. Is Spock also a Mary Sue? An alien race took his fucking brain to run their planet because he was so smart.

You're stretching this definition beyond its usefulness.

 

[eschaton]

The one criticism of Burnham I agree with is the other characters are just way too effusive in their praise for her. Not only does this seem Mary Sue-ish, it's bad writing, as you should show, not tell. And I cannot remember any past instances of other characters laying it on so thick for the main character in Trek.

 

[Fateor]

Mary Sue is putting yourself into the story. I can write a story about some space hero saving the galaxy but it's not Mary Sue. I'd be writing someone else, not putting myself into that story. I don't fantasize about going off into space and fighting bad guys. I'd go into space (if I could) to get away from all that nonsense. Not to go find more of it.

No it's not, Mary Sue is a specific character archtype.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CommonMarySueTraits

So here's my question for you, Yes or No does Burnham possess more then 50% of those traits?

 

[Longinus]

No. I had actually written out about 5 paragraphs, but then I realized what I was doing and stopped. Nothing I say is going to matter. You weren't just against my post, you're actively hostile to it, and me as well. You've made up your mind about what is and isn't Star Trek, and are ready to apply firm scientific principles to it, but only this show, apparently, because previous series were rigorously scientific.

I simply stated why your position was fallacious.

I will make a recommendation, though, and ask that you read Mycelial Running by Dr. Paul Stamets. It is not only fascinating, but illuminating, and opens an entirely new world on our understanding of mycology and the backbone of the planet's organic communication network.

Does it explain how one can use mushrooms to instantly teleport anywhere in the multiverse?

 

[AlanC9]

Bottom line, the only examples I've noticed of any sociopolitical agenda have been passing snippets of dialogue... like this week's obvious allegory between mistreating the spore network and present-day climate change, or the way they made Lorca more obviously a racist asshole villain by having him sound like our current president. But those examples are cheap and easy writing, shooting fish in a barrel.

Well, establishing Lorca as a racist asshole villain was something they needed to do quickly, given the episode structure. Might as well go with something simple and workable.

Oddly enough, Lorca turned out to be right. If it wasn't for the continuation of Empress Georgiou's policies (which seem to be the same as the policies of the IAMD era), the Empire likely wouldn't have collapsed, since Mirror Spock wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the levers of power..

 

[SJGardner]

I don't see Burnham as a Mary Sue. Not even close.

I can't even think of any Trek character that fits the Mary Sue label other than Wesley Crusher, actually. There might exist some, but they escape my mind now. I don't remember anyone else who was consistently an insufferable genius who was always smarter than everyone else around them, saving the ship every time all by themselves with every suggestion of people other than them actually hurting the effort, and the only feedback ever received by them being constant undeserved praise and gushing peppered with the occasional undeserved criticism intended (and failing) to raise sympathy for them. Even if one thinks as Burnham or Tilly as badly written characters (which one certainly has the right to, although I don't agree with them), they don't even come within one light year of The Wesley archetype.

 

[Amaris]

I simply stated why your position was fallacious.

Does it explain how one can use mushrooms to instantly teleport anywhere in the multiverse?

No, @Longinus, it doesn't, but read the book if you really want to know what it does discuss at great length. What I have been saying is that Star Trek is drama, mixed in with some fantasy and science fiction elements. It has always taken a concept and ran with it. Hence why we have transporters, warp drive, people who turn into lizards and then back into people, alien races that look, act, speak, and have mannerisms almost exactly like human beings. The show uses just enough scientific nomenclature to legitimize it, without having to adhere to the underlying principles. So when you say the show isn't scientific, you're speaking of the entire franchise. On every level. Star Trek has inspired scientists, but rarely has it actually listened to them when the script calls for some drama.

Discovery is no different in that regard, but it did try to do its homework, and using Paul Stamets mycelial network as the basis of a new form of transportation is rather inspired. They tried to think outside the box and people are giving them shit for it. They, and you, are free to do so, but you have no ground to stand on when you argue the show doesn't follow science as rigorously as you may like. None of them do. None.

 

[Lord Garth]

No it's not, Mary Sue is a specific character archtype.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CommonMarySueTraits

So here's my question for you, Yes or No does Burnham possess more then 50% of those traits?

That's a lot of stuff in there to go through one-by-one. And that's assuming everything that was listed on the TV Tropes page fits the textbook definition.

I'll look the list of examples, compare it to textbook definitions, and then decide. But it'll be on my own time, not yours. I don't feel like doing research at this very moment.

When I do, though, I know there's no guarantee people will agree with my conclusions. So, potentially, I'm just shooting through other people's hoops and they don't care what I post so long as I agree with them. And if I don't agree, what I say will be dismissed outright, no matter how much I elaborate on what I think or how thorough I am.

 

[Captain Killy]

Now, just so you all don’t think I’m just some uncritical gushing Fangirl, I do actually have two little nitpicks about last nights episodes. Because you know, I’m a geek and it’s kinds what we do...

1) When The Emperor activated the “Emergency Transport” why did she go brood in her private residence? Why didn’t she have, like I don’t know, a getaway shuttle prepped and ready, just in case of this very type of situation. Conceivable she still has powerful assests and loyalists throughout the Empire right? So get the fuck out of there woman, gather your forces and live to fight another day..

2) At the end when The Emperor is going to make her “last stand” to provide Burnham the time she needs to do the thing she needed to do, she said something to the affect of “I’m an Emperor defeated...” and I’m all like “The fuck you are woman!! You just shanked the guy who attempted to take your throne and threw his ass into a mother fucking sun!! You won! By the laws of the MU as we know them, once Lorca’s men burst through those doors to see you standing there in all your badass glory, towering over the mangled bodies of the fallen with bloodied sword in hand, they should have all dropped their weapons, given you the Imperial salute and cried out “Long live the Emperor!!”

And those are my two nitpicks of he week...