Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x10 - "Despite Yourself"

[eschaton]

The whole 'point' of science fiction is to entertain by showing something not technologically available in an interesting and entertaining way. You can also incorporate allegory, to make a point or mask your presentation of a political view or situation but it's not the "point' of science fiction or fantasy books, films or TV series <--- They're ALL meant primarily to entertain first.

Obviously the point of all fictional media is to entertain. But there should be a reason you're using a science-fiction setting rather than just a "mundane" one. Most typically it's either to consider scenarios which cannot happen under current technological limitations, or to tell some sort of allegorical story.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Maybe they are a quiet lot in the MU , it seems some fans expect Terrans to be the opposite of what they are in the Prime universe as a species, but all the other aliens to be the same.

Based on what we've actually seen in the various series, that does appear to be the case. Klingons, Cardassians, etc. all seem to be just like their RU counterparts. The Bajorans are a bit more militant (I've heard talk that the MU Bajorans worship the Pah-Wraiths instead of the Prophets, but this is just a theory) but not unrecognizable. We have never seen the MU Romulans, but I'd guess they're the same as well.

 

[oberth]

What if Landry crossed over from the MU with Lorca? It would explain why the two were close, and why she seemed so out-of-character for a Federation Officer.

nice idea but then the ship stranded there is uss defiant not uss deviant

 

[Albinator]

Obviously the point of all fictional media is to entertain. But there should be a reason you're using a science-fiction setting rather than just a "mundane" one. Most typically it's either to consider scenarios which cannot happen under current technological limitations, or to tell some sort of allegorical story.

Exactly. Want to tell a real world story? You can do that in an episode of Blue Bloods, or Fargo, or House of Cards. Science Fiction without the allegory misses the point of what the genre can offer, and what makes it unique and special.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Though the Discovery crew will probably not actually USE the Defiant to get home, even if they did, there will not be a loop.

If this actually does occur, and the ship is not destroyed in the attempt, then there would be two Defiants coexisting: the normal one, that is native to 2256, and the one from ten years in the future (TOS' time) which they have just used. Simple enough. And no loop.

Although Starfleet would have to take extreme caution to make sure nothing happens to the 2256 version of the ship - because it has to be intact, 10 years later, so it can end up in the MU in the first place.

Still, though, NO LOOP. Even if the 2266 Defiant makes it back to the RU, it will not somehow become its own younger self. Both versions will coexist - at least for 10 years or so...

 

[cooleddie74]

Voyager for all its flaws was good at telling allegorical stories. Episode plots were often the framing device to tackle issues like the ethics of using knowledge derived from medical experimentation and war crimes, the sentience of self-aware beings and the inherent rights of a living individual to decide whether or not to take their own life. Trek in general over the decades has been renowned for its tackling of important social issues and using the 22nd, 23rd and 24th centuries and their fantastical settings to explore those topics in a way that both removed the audience from real life and yet still plunked them down right in the middle of a timely and prescient issue being debated by the society at-large.

So far Discovery has done some of that but not so much thus far, and while I like the show I wouldn't exactly call it the most thoughtful or engaging Trek on a cerebral level.

 

[Jayson1]

Exactly. Want to tell a real world story? You can do that in an episode of Blue Bloods, or Fargo, or House of Cards. Science Fiction without the allegory misses the point of what the genre can offer, and what makes it unique and special.

You still would have allegory with humans being bigoted towards each other. The situation would be along the lines if modern humans took all their bigotry to space and encountered aliens. I recall a moment in the old "Alien Nation" show or movie where a older black lady showed some kindness towards one of the aliens because she knew what racism was like from personal experience. Let's not forger lots of sci-fi also takes place in the modern world so you still have to deal with real life issues along with the sci-fi stuff. You can make Empire humans even more like us and still keep the same story going it. All it would do is add a extra level of depth.

Jason

 

[Paradise City]

If you are telling a story full stop in whatever genre, you are telling some sort of allegory. There's a moral dimension or concern to every drama.

Anyhow, I enjoyed the episode all-in-all, although Dastardly Captain Tilly is a bit of a stretch methinks. Poor old Culber getting the old Klingon neck pinch is not something I saw coming.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Defiant would have been pulled to pieces to reverse engineer all it's tech, or lost in battle in the last century.

The trick to getting back is Tholian Interphase timespace, not the Defiant.

 

[eschaton]

Exactly. Want to tell a real world story? You can do that in an episode of Blue Bloods, or Fargo, or House of Cards. Science Fiction without the allegory misses the point of what the genre can offer, and what makes it unique and special.

I guess you can be cynical and say that sci-fi is just a series of tropes sold to nerds - a certain visual aesthetic. But I'm having a damn hard time thinking of a science fiction setting which didn't use either allegory or things which are impossible in the current time period. I think that's because that sort of content wouldn't sell - it would be too normal for the nerds, and too weird for normal people.

 

[cooleddie74]

Yep. So far four ways are known to get from our universe into the Mirror: transporter accident during a powerful ion storm, Mirror Universe transporters quantum-calibrated to cross the threshold between the two sides, an interspatial rift and interphase created by artificial means and a spore hub drive jump. Right now only one is known to our characters, one won't be discovered for at least ten more years, the other is well over a century into the future and the last has yet to be discovered as having happened and is buried somewhere in the Imperial database.

Lorca and his officers have limited options right now.

 

[Paradise City]

Can someone give me an example of a piece of work that isn't an allegory of one kind or another?

 

[Athena28]

Hoping for the Intendant's ancestor.

 

[eschaton]

Can someone give me an example of a piece of work that isn't an allegory of one kind or another?

Poorly structured biographical films with no coherent themes?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Can someone give me an example of a piece of work that isn't an allegory of one kind or another?

The entire Fast and the Furious franchise.

 

[Jayson1]

Actually I can think of some dark humor if/when they go aboard the Defiant. Archer's head mounted on the wall. I forget if T'Pol and Phlox got killed but maybe one of them is still on the ship. We have no idea on the lifespan of a Denoboliun. All the dead bodies of the original crew STILL hasn't been taken care off. Now it's just a bunch of bones and old style Starfleet outfits laying around. They use 60's era looking sets yet everyone is amazed at how advanced it looks.


Jason

 

[cooleddie74]

The Jackass franchise. Although to be fair there are lessons taught in those films. Mostly involving not putting your genitals anywhere near anything metal or with an electrical current running through it.

 

[Albinator]

You still would have allegory with humans being bigoted towards each other. The situation would be along the lines if modern humans took all their bigotry to space and encountered aliens. I recall a moment in the old "Alien Nation" show or movie where a older black lady showed some kindness towards one of the aliens because she knew what racism was like from personal experience. Let's not forger lots of sci-fi also takes place in the modern world so you still have to deal with real life issues along with the sci-fi stuff. You can make Empire humans even more like us and still keep the same story going it. All it would do is add a extra level of depth.

Jason

Sure, you could... but again, what's the point? This isn't Alien Nation, set in a relatively modern day Detroit.

If you are telling a story full stop in whatever genre, you are telling some sort of allegory. There's a moral dimension or concern to every drama.

But that's not what an allegory is. A message about how racism is wrong, by showing a white man treating a black man with prejudice is not allegory. Showing a race of robots where the blue ones are laborers, while the orange ones live in luxury, is allegory.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Phlox, a middle aged Denobulan was pushing 300 in Enterprise.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

All the dead bodies of the original crew STILL hasn't been taken care off.

Actually, yes they did. Before Hoshi and her cronies officially took control of the ship they had it cleared of all the dead crew.