Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x09 - "Into the Forest I Go"

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

In a case like this, details are everything. And, whether you personally like it or not, it's clear that the details of this case convinced Starfleet that Lorca wasn't guilty...otherwise he would be in the stockade rather than in command of a starship.

Again, I'm far from ready to issue some blanket condemnation Lorca at this point, but there has certainly been specific indication that he may have misrepresented to Starfleet what happened. Even if there is room to doubt Cornwell's objectivity, we can't just ignore her assessment that he lied to pass his psych evaluations in order to get command of Discovery. And moreover, we've actually witnessed him deliberately mislead his superiors on other occasions, even if we might support and agree with his motives there. We have been given multiple partial accounts of what happened by various questionable narrators, and no independent corroboration of any. To say he's definitely in the clear with nothing further to answer for would be as unsubstantiated as saying he is irretrievably damned. He is a slippery character, and the extent of his guilt or lack thereof cannot as yet be pinned down.

-MMoM

 

[Guy Gardener]

You have to lie about how "Everyone lies" to pass a psych test.

Critical flaw.

 

[Refuge]

We do know - A war scenario. Fear of capture and torture. Lorca escapes and his crew is blown up my him. This is from the horse's mouth in a setting where Lorca was willing to take his chances in a Klingon prison with Klingon torture. Too bad Saru didn't blow him up in the prison instead of trying to save him.

Here's a little 'context' because it's for liars and nutjobs as well as kings.

[GASPS, SIGHS] [CORNWELL GASPS] - [PANTING] - [PHASER POWERING UP] [POWERS PHASER OFF]
[LORCA] I'm sorry. I'm not used to having anyone in my bed.
[CORNWELL] You sleep with a phaser in your bed, and say nothing's wrong?
[LORCA] Kat
[CORNWELL] All these months I have ignored the signs, but I can't anymore. The truth is, you are not the man I used to know.
[LORCA] Of course I am.
[CORNWELL] I'm not like the rest at Starfleet, blinded by your victories. You lied on those psych evaluations. And you did it so brilliantly you fooled everyone. That what you're doing here? You came to evaluate me yourself? I have watched you change these last months. It's upsetting.
[LORCA] Kat
[CORNWELL] Now I see, it's worse than I even thought. Your behavior is pathological. That's what tonight was, right? Trying to get me to back off? No. It sure wasn't what it was like before. But this is bigger than us. You said it yourself. We're at war. I can't leave Starfleet's most powerful weapon in the hands of a broken man.
[LORCA] Don't take my ship away from me. She's all I got. Please, I'm begging you. [STAMMERS] You're right. It's been harder on me than I let on. I lied about everything, and I need help.
[CORNWELL] I hate that I can't tell if this is really you.

 

[lab rat]

[MUDD] The tragic tale of the U.S.S.Buran. It was ambushed about a month into the war. The Klingons boarded it and blasted it into smithereens. Only one crewman managed to escape. Gabriel Lorca. Apparently, the honorable captain was too good to go down with his ship.

Could have been that Lorca was on another ship at the time for a meeting or for play with an admiral. When his ship was boarded and taken over it became an enemy target and he felt he had to be the one to press the fire button. The quick quip that he destroyed his own ship is just so simplistic that the writers must have a more complex truth as of yet untold.

 

[Refuge]

Could have been that Lorca was on another ship at the time for a meeting or for play with an admiral. When his ship was boarded and taken over it became an enemy target and he felt he had to be the one to press the fire button. The quick quip that he destroyed his own ship is just so simplistic that the writers must have a more complex truth as of yet untold.

He does 'correct' Mudd, where he recounts the ship being *ambushed* and *I did escape*.

[LORCA] Mudd's only half right. We were ambushed, and I did escape. But I didn't let my crew die. I blew them up. I knew what awaited them on Qo'noS. Degradation. Torture. Slow, public death. It's the Klingon way to spread terror. Not my crew. Not on my watch.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

If you believe he is a liar elsewhere, then why do you believe what he tells Mudd isn't a lie? He had just discovered a Klingon listening device attached to Mudd's pet. He could easily have reasoned there might be others. He may have been trying to intimidate Mudd and the Klingons who could still be listening, and establish what dominance and control he could under the circumstances by doubling down on Mudd's accusations, which were clearly meant to sew Tyler's mistrust. Mudd was playing the manipulator, and Lorca beat him at his own game. He's the master manipulator. It's a possibility.

Also, his representation of what happened may be distorted by survivor's guilt, or a need to compensate for it.

Lorca is the very definition of an unreliable narrator.

(Which does not mean what he said is definitely inaccurate, just that we must question its accuracy. We shouldn't ignore it, but can't simply take it at face value.)

-MMoM

 

[Refuge]

Lorca admits to lies on his psych test. He wanted to pass them.

There was no reason for him to lie to Mudd who had independent knowledge of the Buran anyway. Lorca simply corrected how the events played out.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

It might be as "simple" as that, but then again it might not. How can you tell?

 

[Xerxus]

Could have been that Lorca was on another ship at the time for a meeting or for play with an admiral. When his ship was boarded and taken over it became an enemy target and he felt he had to be the one to press the fire button. The quick quip that he destroyed his own ship is just so simplistic that the writers must have a more complex truth as of yet untold.

If the Klingon ship was 'attached' to the Buran(or close enough to be blown up which seems very typical in the universe), Lorca would not have been able to do a shipwide warning/evacuation without alerting the Klingons to deboard/detach.

If the Klingons were warned, then the result would be the same as no self destruct. The ones who made it to the escape pods would have been captured bt the enemy ship and tortured on Qo'nos.

This is one possible scenario.

 

[Refuge]

Until the dialogue tells otherwise what else have we got that isn't filtered through viewer and possible bias?

Because both Mudd and Cornwell have their takes on the story it does strongly indicate there IS a reference point at least. That there was a USS Buran. A crew. Lorca was the Captain. The vessel and the crew are - absent. Lorca escaped but suffered eye damage, which is something open to speculation in detail. (Was it directly in the confrontation with the Klingons or was it actually to the proximity of the Buran blowing up?) If those events are not in dispute or open for interpretation that only leaves the emotions involved to justify the actions. So what if Lorca was possibly paranoid and afraid for his crew, if it makes no difference to their fate? That was supposed to be the subject of his psychological evaluation for future duty but would not change the facts of the past. He passed his tests for future service, fairly or not. That is the history we know up to date.

If the writers do an about face and change the events regards the Buran (it is hiding out somewhere, everyone survived and are playing golf in a secret location or whatever), then good for them! Tricked us

 

[Crazy Eddie]

^I still wonder if that General Order 24 business might have simply been a ruse like "The Corbomite Maneuver" and "Condition Green" from "Bread and Circuses" (TOS), etc. It would be a ploy totally in Kirk's style. And considering how often starship captains have lost their shit and turned homicidal or suicidal, it seems like a really irresponsible policy if it's real.

Captain Garth was apparently thrown off the bridge of his ship for exactly this reason.

In point of fact, General Order 24 almost certainly refers to the rules of operational security during hostage situations and probably says something like "Do not negotiate with terrorists." Kirk has been taken prisoner enough times during landing parties that he probably rehearsed this entire ruse with his senior officers dozens and dozens of times. This is why Scotty doesn't ask him to confirm the order, doesn't ask for explanations, doesn't even question it. Because Kirk ordering Scotty to glass the entire planet is something Scotty would certainly respond with "You can't be serious! What?!" But Kirk ordering Scotty to scare the shit out of the Eminians and get them to think that any possible escalation is going to end badly for them? No questions needed, he can definitely do that.

And my impression is that he wasn't honest with Starfleet about it. It really doesn't sound like exactly the same thing as Kirk's "turn[ing] death into a fighting chance to live" in STIII, or Anderson ordering the self-destruction of the already-doomed Europa in order to take out the cleave ship and prevent it from doing the same to any other vessels, to me.

So I'm not the only one who thinks that Lorca did something weird to the Buran and that his crew is still alive somewhere, folded up in some kind of classic Star Trekian negative space wedgie and that his entire motivation for getting the Spore Drive working was to go back and rescue them?

I find him quite a compelling character in any case.

With a Captain like this, who needs Klingons?

 

[Succubint]

I think people may be missing the point regarding Cornwell's accusation that Lorca lied to pass his psych exams. The context was solely about his mental recovery from the trauma of losing his crew to the Klingons and whether he was fit yet to return to the Captain's chair. It had nothing to do with her suspecting him of lying about the *circumstances* surrounding the loss of the USS Buran, imo.

She was focused on Lorca's mental state, how Lorca might still be traumatized (from the Buran and from the more recent capture and torture on L'Rell's ship) and that his judgment might be compromised because of it.

"I'm not talking about your record. I'm talking about you."
"...Less than a week ago you were being tortured. Now you're back in the chair. How do you feel about that?"

Later, when she flips out over him keeping a phaser in his bed and reflexively attacking her, Lorca accuses her of evaluating him under false pretenses. She doesn't deny it. But she's come to the conclusion that he's mentally unfit, has been since Buran, and will continue to hide his unstable condition and lie to keep his position. She doesn't recognize him any more.

"You're pathological."
"I can't leave Starfleet's most powerful weapon in the hands of a broken man."
"I hate that I can't tell if this is really you."

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Until the dialogue tells otherwise what else have we got that isn't filtered through viewer and possible bias?

We have nothing that isn't filtered through the possible biases of morally questionable characters and of viewers. This isn't like a lot of previous Trek stories where there is always a clearly transmitted indication of whom we're supposed to believe and side with at any given point. They want to keep us guessing and questioning and unable to tell for sure whether Lorca is a good guy or a bad guy, or both, or neither. I can understand that this approach frustrates you, but you've just got to go with it and wait to see where they're taking things before rendering a final judgment. We're only halfway there as yet.

I think people may be missing the point regarding Cornwell's accusation that Lorca lied to pass his psych exams. The context was solely about his mental recovery from the trauma of losing his crew to the Klingons and whether he was fit yet to return to the Captain's chair. It had nothing to do with her suspecting him of lying about the *circumstances* surrounding the loss of the USS Buran, imo.

Again, someone who lies about one thing might well lie about other things too, whether for similar reasons or different ones. As Jon Pertwee's Doctor (Who) might put it: "If I were to tell you that the next thing I say will be true, but that the last thing I said was a lie, would you believe me?"

Or to put it in more Trekkie terms...

MUDD: I lied.
NORMAN: What?
KIRK: He lied. Everything Harry tells you is a lie. Remember that. Everything Harry tells you is a lie!
MUDD: Now, listen to this carefully, Norman. I am lying.
NORMAN: You say you are lying, but if everything you say is a lie, then you are telling the truth. But you cannot tell the truth, because everything you say is a lie. But you lie. You tell the truth, but you cannot, for you lie... Illogical! Illogical! Please explain! You are humans! Only humans can explain their behavior! Please explain!
[head begins smoking]

-MMoM

 

[Refuge]

I'm not guessing about Lorca though. I think he is damaged. I believe from his account and two others he killed his crew but escaped. I believe he lied on his psych tests not to cover what he did, as mentioned above that is known by independents sources. He lied to remain in contention to be a captain again. Short of the writers making any of these actions go away, I see nothing to change or justify them. I don't care that he didn't want his crew to suffer having seen him perfectly willing to face Klingon torture himself and having life still. Having a chance. I see someone who slept with another and pulled a phaser on her. He left her to take her chances when she was captured. I see a captain who still breaks orders when he chooses. Who set a course to the unknown that they are in now.

When you enable someone like a Lorca to your 'care' you either end up dead or lost. He's not a question mark of maybe good or bad, he's lost the plot and from all accounts owns his ship and crew with ego and danger.

 

[Succubint]

Well, Cornwell certainly thought so. The rest of his crew right now, might not agree. They haven't seen that 'broken' side of him yet. They've seen him act heroically and get them through some very hard missions.

But, then again, we still have 6 episodes to go. Plenty of time to have him be revealed as not fit to command. I presume that this will be an ongoing arc.

 

[DaveyNY]

But what about Van Dykes?

What do Lesbians that drive around in 'Chrysler Town & Country's' have to do with any of this?

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Many (not all admittedly, but MANY) of the examples above are considered almost universally as some of the BEST of the franchise.

And few (not many admittedly, but FEW) of the examples above are considered almost universally as some of the WORST of the franchise. (Nemesis anyone?)

Funny how people can build an argument and opinion to service their needs, regardless of the fact that it's completely inconsistent with their attitudes toward other VERY like things.

 

[fireproof78]

And few (not many admittedly, but FEW) of the examples above are considered almost universally as some of the WORST of the franchise. (Nemesis anyone?)

Funny how people can build an argument and opinion to service their needs, regardless of the fact that it's completely inconsistent with their attitudes toward other VERY like things.

So, Star Trek? Because, that has been my experience across several threads within the fandom.

 

[Vger23]

And few (not many admittedly, but FEW) of the examples above are considered almost universally as some of the WORST of the franchise. (Nemesis anyone?)

Funny how people can build an argument and opinion to service their needs, regardless of the fact that it's completely inconsistent with their attitudes toward other VERY like things.

I'm sorry, but you argument makes absolutely no sense. One example (Nemesis) does not compare to the volume of all the other examples I threw out. And, frankly, I could have left Nemesis off the list, and you would have had nothing to say. All the other examples hold up. I put Nemesis in there for purposes of being complete and I admitted that not all my examples were to be considered examples of the "best" of Trek (which is totally subjective anyway).

So, you're going to need to elaborate, because I don't get it. At all.

So, I'm not sure what the laughing emoji is supposed to represent. Perhaps it's a guy who doesn't understand the point of your post? I dunno.

 

[cooleddie74]

I rewatched most of "Into the Forest I Go" last night and I have to say the episode holds up well under repeat viewings even if the final showdown with Kol and the Ship of the Dead is still unsatisfying (in no small part because it was and still is hard to give a damn about any of the Klingons except for L'Rell and Voq) and the showdown between Burnham and Kol just felt a lot emptier than it should have given that she killed T'Kuvma and actually requested one-on-one combat to buy Discovery time to lock onto the sarcophagus ship and destroy it. There was so much dramatic potential there for Burnham and Kol to have a true showdown and it just came off like a random bat'leth fight in a DS9 Klingon episode.

So a good midseason finale even if some scenes just fall a little flat.