Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x02 - "Battle at the Binary Stars"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
G
Gonzo
Guest
I wouldn't say they were shite as such but if I had to choose I would take the 3 new reboot films over them easily.What? TNG: Genedrations, TNG:Issurection and TNG: Nemesis utter shite? Yeas, I agree.
That's part of what I mean – you (and many fans, apparently) automatically assume the prime directive of non-interference even applies there, or applies to all alien cultures, but I think it's pretty much just for more primitive cultures that aren't even aware of other space faring civilizations yet. Having warp drive is one strong indication an otherwise isolated culture is going to lose that notion PDQ, so it'll be O.K. to talk to them and interact with them if we want. Other space farers already there is another.
Considering Eminiar Seven's use of a well-known signal (code seven-ten) for others to keep away, they obviously are well versed with the fact they are not alone in the universe (they are even using standard codes for this quadrant of the galaxy). And it's not like a Federation ship showing up is a shocking revelation, either. Doubtless the Federation has already been in contact with Eminiar Seven and sent Fox to open more formal negotiations.
In short, we can interfere all we want with more advanced cultures, and while it may not be wise or be the policy of the Federation to do anything it wants there, whatever it does, even if you disagree with it, it wouldn't be a violation of the Prime Directive.
Nothing like The Apple, IMO. A culture arrested for 10,000 years, and a clear exception to the PD since the PD only applies to living, growing cultures – not those in an arrested development.
Yeah!
If it seemed "convenient," then blame the writers – not Kirk. He didn't make up exceptions to fit his needs – the way he said things, it seemed like he was following the letter and the spirit of the PD – but it's so complex, it is obviously open to some interpretation. Spock, for example, disagreed with Kirk (at first) since he saw nothing particularly wrong with serving a machine for 10K years or more and having normal basic human traits suppressed. But that may be a Vulcan perspective – like an emotionless rock enduring millions of years might be a good and worthy, perhaps even enviable existence. Anyway, it was mostly from the fact he didn't have all the facts and he wasn't sure, and as first officer, it was his duty to point out StarFleet "might" disagree with Kirk. Ultimately, they didn't.
If they had, then like the Archon, that ship would have gone missing and another ship, and another, since Vaal had a clear MO in destroying visitors and their ships and the means to do so. Eventually, one ship would have taken them out since, well, we're really not the type to let something like that go without at least knowing the reason. Maybe they could have sent probes and discerned the problem that way after losing a few ships/crews to that mystery, but manned-exploration is the preferred method, even if we know we will lose many lives. We're explorers – and space is not for the timid. Luckily, it is well-known StarFleet service is not a bill of goods sold to the unsuspecting as a particularly safe occupation. You want to remain safe? Stay at home and watch their findings on the Discovery Channel.
Even then, though, know well the galaxy is not a safe place and even staying at home, you could die when some alien probe shows up and you are too ignorant or imperfect for its taste, and that's the end of you. Or you can go out and learn things.
That's My Recommendation.
Last edited:
Well the clearest definition of GO#1 is from TAS (so your mileage may vary) but it says "No starship may interfere with the normal development of any alien life or society". The "any" part seems rather conclusive, but the "normal" aspect is often cited as method for applying the order. I would argue that "normal" means "otherwise unmolested" by alien cultures, whereas you might take it to mean "developing as the average culture does" or something like that. Either way, I think there is wiggle room in "The Apple" - but i would hope that it wouldn't depend on a few hours observing the culture to conclude that upending it is ok. But that is an argument for another day.
I however cannot reconcile the concept of non-interference with alien cultures with "it's ok if they are advanced enough. go ahead, meddle all you want." Talking to and interacting with is ok, but interference with is where the line must be drawn. Allowing interference seems to run counter to everything the Federation stands for, even in the less-perfect 23rd century. Are Kirk and Co. allowed to behead fascist dictatorships and enforce socialist, democratic principles for "normal progress"? Or how about overthrow elected governments, and install Federation-friendly governors or even dictators? I would say that the intent of GO#1 says no, that no interference at any level can be allowed because any interference is too much. And that the proof of it is in those cases where Kirk has clear justification for interference: to right a previous interference - "Patterns of Force" or "A Piece of the Action" or "Bread and Circuses" or "The Omega Glory". If the actions of the previous captain were wrong and are allowed to be corrected by Kirk, then how is that different than Kirk's interference in "A Taste of Armageddon"?
One final point on whether Starfleet okayed his actions. Textually, there is no direct answer. We can conclude they did since Kirk wasn't called up on charges, but (taking Into Darkness as an example) there are alternatives: Kirk's after action reports could have been vague like "(The Apple) Left Gamma Trianguli VI, where a normal, average primitive culture is currently living" and where Kirk Prime did a better job vetting his first officer's report before sending it in to Starfleet Headquarters. That is as consistent as the other. Another option is that Starfleet gave their reluctant approval afterward as fait acompli, not wanting to publicize the event and kick out their best and most famous captain.
(I will have to rewatch the episodes in question to review if Kirk sounds like his is finding an easy out or just following one of the allowed exceptions.)
Ultimately, I guess I would say that really it just comes down to it being a TV show. Gene (and Gene) and the others crafted GO#1 because it fit within the vision for a better future that they were crafting, but when interesting plots came up and they wanted Kirk being a hero and saving the day they had him do what he thought best. I should probably file these potential violations away alongside the early issues of who do Kirk and crew report to (Starfleet or the United Earth Space Probe Agency?), etc. because "A Taste of Armageddon" just doesn't fit well, for me, alongside GO#1 within an organization that court martials Kirk for the events in "Court Martial". It's just hard to reconcile.
I think sometimes we blame shit writing / shit quality on the "characters" when we like the product, but we deride the writing and quality in general when we don't like the product.
I actually think that Trek IV is amongst the weakest films of the franchise. I don't blame Kirk's "incompetence..." I blame the fact that it's a sloppy script.
Life in federation could mean the same as "life" in the UK, IE 14 year minimum, then your eligible for parole unless the judge sets the minimum higher.
Yeah, in most civilised countries 'life' sentence really doesn't mean life.
I'd still assume it'd mean no more serving on starships.
Im curious as to how they handle it but the idea she can serve again seems rather preposterous to me, in my 2017 way of looking at the world that I know.
I can't imagine she'll be serving. She'd would have to be more a forced civilian consultant. Either help or go to jail.
While Picard says it's a correct philosophy since every time we've tried to interfere with a "less developed civilization," no matter how well intentioned that interference may be, the results are invariably disastrous.
Most times it's brought up, they are dealing with primitive cultures.
However, they toss in other general principles, and I don't know if they specifically said it was GO #1, the prime directive, or some other non-interference directive taken to mean the PD but not really meant to be the PD but another non-interference directive - there may be more than one – like not getting involved in an internal civil war of the Klingons. That doesn't seem like the PD to me, but just one of many policies the Federation has and adheres to, and since it is a non-interference policy, maybe they feel (or even said) it was the PD. But then why is Picard likening it to dealing with lesser civilizations? Arrogance?
But supposedly GO #1 has 47 sub-orders to it, and I know I've never seen 47 sub orders written out, so I can't be sure. I just know it most often seems to deal with primitive cultures, the main points mostly concerned with the natural development toward a space faring civilization of indigenous populations. 47? That's probably 47 exceptions right there, and I'm pretty sure Kirk knows every one of them.
I didn't think they would be allowed to do anything they wanted – just not everything was covered under general order #1 and therefore some things wouldn't be a violation of GO #1. But they still might be a violation of general order #2, for example, or other GO's that probably have further restrictions (not that they ever say what most of these GO's are, and only have explicitly mentioned 1, 4, 6, 7, 12, 13, 15, and 24, the last being a direct order to destroy all life on the planet.
For most of those, I would say no, too, but not assume the reason was tied up in GO #1, but another GO, or directive, or StarFleet Order, or StarFleet Regulation. Not everything must be reflected in GO #1. Not every non-interference policy must stem from GO #1.
Correcting another's interference seems right, but in A Taste of Armageddon, that wasn't the case. Clearly he interfered, but they had essentially declared war on the Federation by attacking the Enterprise and kidnapping the landing party, so I say they had it coming. They're lucky the Feds are no longer the warmongers the Arminians still seem to be.
Unless he could convince Spock and others to out right lie to Starfleet command, too, I discount the idea Kirk falsified the reports. And getting a reprimand may not have derailed his career, but I wouldn't assume it, and unless told otherwise, I would assume he made admiral because of a relatively exemplary record and not one filled with reprimands. Besides, one really should suggest a better course of action before you can fault him for the one he took. Most often, it seems to me that would have resulted in his death and the destruction of his ship, so he had little to lose and everything to gain. And no where did a situation come up where it was required he, his crew, and his ship needed to be sacrificed to not interfere with an actual, living, growing, indigenous culture (that I recall).
And what was your proposed solution to AToA? Not go, disobey Fox?
I did note that once Kirk had the upper hand, he could have bugged out, ship and all, and left those warring bastards alone. It was no longer necessary to do what he did to save the ship. But Starfleet wanted the port, and you can't have a port with a local war going on like that, so he probably did what he did not just because he felt it was right to put a stop that level of death, but because it got Starfleet what they needed as well. And if Starfleet was going to be his judge, well . . .
And they really did effectively declare war on us first.
What? TNG: Genedrations, TNG:Issurection and TNG: Nemesis utter shite? Yeas, I agree.
Hey. Star Trek Gesticulations was a good popcorn film. Take a walk off a holographic plank, landlubber.
Bridge on the captain!Hey. Star Trek Gesticulations was a good popcorn film. Take a walk off a holographic plank, landlubber.
You knew someone would say it.
Sarek. Surak was in the guy in Archer's head.
I have a question: how was the Shenzhou able to swap out phase cannons for phasers in 20 in-universe minutes?
I almost never care about nitpicking over minutiae but I'm trying to give the two parts a second chance to impress me. However, if the writers were willing to give a call back to ENT with phase cannons (the weapon used to lock on the Klingon ship) why would they throw it away in an instant?
I almost never care about nitpicking over minutiae but I'm trying to give the two parts a second chance to impress me. However, if the writers were willing to give a call back to ENT with phase cannons (the weapon used to lock on the Klingon ship) why would they throw it away in an instant?
They didn't - they probably had BOTH types of weapons: IE "Phase cannons" as well as standard 23rd century Phaser Banks installed. They also had Photon Torpedos
Battle of the Binary Stars review
The second episode, continuing on from where the second one left off. More is revealed of Burnham's backstory, about why she was so adamant that Georgeou allow her to carry out the 'Vulcan Hello' to the Klingons. That Sarek had raised her after her parents had been lost after a Klingon 'terror raid'. The scenes in her past at the learning centre were done quite well (although I guessed a short while before, that a mind meld was going to be involved.) The telepathic communication that Sarek employs here builds on the pre-existing information on Vulcan abilities.
Burnham's discussion on ethics with the computer to let her out of the brig is done quite well also, and effectively leads to the conclusion. The Battle itself is developed well enough. The tactics that the Federation and Klingon ships employ are well choreographed. The fate of the Europa wasn't overdone. The presence of the Admiral isn't built upon much, merely reinforcing Georgeou's view on trying to resolve the situation. But the solution on crippling the Klingon ship may not have been the best way.
The Klingons were expanded on, specifically T'Kumva's motivations (although I'm not sure why he would refer to Andorians as 'filthy' if the others weren't), Uniting the Klingon Houses against the Federation, so that Federation influence wouldn't destroy Klingon culture (hence 'Remain Klingon'). This is an interesting idea, but I'm not certain how it could go further, given that Burnham kills him after he kills Georgeou (despite her earlier advice that he might become a martyr that way). Maybe a story about Klingons being inspired by this Martyr?
Quite interesting. A quite moving episode, Georgeou gives her life for the Federation, and T'Kumva for the Klingons. But this leaves the Federation and the Empire at war. And Burnham is left in a situation where her life is in ruins, sent to a military prison for her actions. That is certainly an interesting ending. 8.5/10.
The second episode, continuing on from where the second one left off. More is revealed of Burnham's backstory, about why she was so adamant that Georgeou allow her to carry out the 'Vulcan Hello' to the Klingons. That Sarek had raised her after her parents had been lost after a Klingon 'terror raid'. The scenes in her past at the learning centre were done quite well (although I guessed a short while before, that a mind meld was going to be involved.) The telepathic communication that Sarek employs here builds on the pre-existing information on Vulcan abilities.
Burnham's discussion on ethics with the computer to let her out of the brig is done quite well also, and effectively leads to the conclusion. The Battle itself is developed well enough. The tactics that the Federation and Klingon ships employ are well choreographed. The fate of the Europa wasn't overdone. The presence of the Admiral isn't built upon much, merely reinforcing Georgeou's view on trying to resolve the situation. But the solution on crippling the Klingon ship may not have been the best way.
The Klingons were expanded on, specifically T'Kumva's motivations (although I'm not sure why he would refer to Andorians as 'filthy' if the others weren't), Uniting the Klingon Houses against the Federation, so that Federation influence wouldn't destroy Klingon culture (hence 'Remain Klingon'). This is an interesting idea, but I'm not certain how it could go further, given that Burnham kills him after he kills Georgeou (despite her earlier advice that he might become a martyr that way). Maybe a story about Klingons being inspired by this Martyr?
Quite interesting. A quite moving episode, Georgeou gives her life for the Federation, and T'Kumva for the Klingons. But this leaves the Federation and the Empire at war. And Burnham is left in a situation where her life is in ruins, sent to a military prison for her actions. That is certainly an interesting ending. 8.5/10.
Phase cannon no doubt is the very same thing as phaser, which is the very same thing as phaser gun ("Spectre of the Gun"), which is the very same thing as phase disruptor or almost so, which is the very same thing as disruptor.
It's just that the Shenzhou is ancient, so its controls are labeled the ancient way. That's gotta seep into the terminology of the users, too, even if they fully well know the modern style of address for their peacemakers.
Timo Saloniemi
Or, she has smaller phase cannons from her launch, and was upgraded with phasers later.
Burnham only wanted the smaller, lower powered cannons pointed at the Klingons to get their attention. Later when she intends to fire fully, she asks them to load torpedoes and bring the main phasers online.
Burnham only wanted the smaller, lower powered cannons pointed at the Klingons to get their attention. Later when she intends to fire fully, she asks them to load torpedoes and bring the main phasers online.
They didn't - they probably had BOTH types of weapons: IE "Phase cannons" as well as standard 23rd century Phaser Banks installed. They also had Photon Torpedos
My immediate thoughts went to the DS9 pilot. In the DS9 Companion they have a section where the writers were discussing the awkward reuse of the whole term "photon torpedoes" and their solution was to have Kira say the full "photon torpedoes" and have Miles respond with "we only have 4 torpedoes" instead of "4 photon torpedoes" or "4 photons.". It could be that Discovery wanted to introduce "phaser" as shorthand for "phase cannon". I don't recall if Enterprise ever got upgraded with phasers like they did with photon torps (which I consider a continuity error given Spock's dialog about the weaponry used in the Federation/Romulan war). I can't really see them having both weapon systems at the same time.
Phase cannons are small and retract. Phasers are mounted hull based weapons, she has enough hull area for both, and some older patches of exposed mechnical sections.
I think she has hull phasers but those were installed later and took up a lot more power. With old phase cannons in their tubes that they use for simpler takes, but need less power to run.
Newer ships just have better transporters and only phasers. And probably travel faster than warp 6.
I think she has hull phasers but those were installed later and took up a lot more power. With old phase cannons in their tubes that they use for simpler takes, but need less power to run.
Newer ships just have better transporters and only phasers. And probably travel faster than warp 6.
Similar threads
- Poll
- Poll
- Poll
- Poll