Star Trek Countdown #2 (Spoilers)
- Thread starter fleetcaptain
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Haven't you seen "The Time Machine"? Though merely an okay movie, Jeremy Irons said it best in this awesome line:
"You built your time machine in response to Emma's death. If she had lived, it would never have existed. How, then, could you use it to go back and save her life?"
reading this thread makes me A) glad i'm not wasting my cash on buying this comic. B) even more worried about the movie. C) Hope like hell they never bring back Data in the books in such a dumbass fashion. and D) Worry all the militant Janeway fans will get their wish come true in about 2012.
People who are dead should stay dead.
if I'd written NEM, it would've featured the Mirror Universe and not had a duplicate Data, but had Data blown to smithereens saving the day in a non-stupid fashion.
People who are dead should stay dead.
if I'd written NEM, it would've featured the Mirror Universe and not had a duplicate Data, but had Data blown to smithereens saving the day in a non-stupid fashion.
Re: Data in Countdown....SPOILERS...
"Jive" seems at least somewhat appropriate, then.
Like Spock? or well everyone on the Enterprise-D?
yes, Spock should've stayed dead. at least with him there were extenuating circumstances...
any normal person should stay dead. getting zapped by the genesis effect kinda gives you a pass...
any normal person should stay dead. getting zapped by the genesis effect kinda gives you a pass...
I think the more interesting route to go with "B-4 has Data's memories" would've been to allow B-4 to evolve into his own person (for lack of a better word), yet able to call upon and be guided by the information given to him by Data. Sometimes he'd succeed; sometimes he'd fail...maybe even spectacularly. At least then he'd still be a separate entity, rather than just "Data 2.0."
Or, they could've put Janeway's brain in his skull. :: shrug ::
Ah, well.
Or, they could've put Janeway's brain in his skull. :: shrug ::
Ah, well.
You beat me to it!
I would actually really like to see the books go in this direction, making B4 a character in his own right but making use of the "Data implant" in this way. It would be a chance to explore a kind of character evolution not previously done in Star Trek, and might make for some interesting interactions between B4 and some of Data's old friends.
I finally read the issue yesterday after I posted this and I was kind of surprised by something I wish I had said when I posted. Of course I don't think anyone else has noticed it but I might be wrong about it. When we first meet Picard, he asks Data how is his ship. Data of course says my ship with his eyes wide about it. I don't know but about that but I think Picard is on some covert mission and Data is not really the captain. Also cause of what Picard is wearing, looks like a different verison of the FC and so on uniform.
Just a thought. I wasn't wrong about Nero losing his wife. I'm just wondering what he learned about Kirk through, that makes him want to go back in the past and kill him.
Just a thought. I wasn't wrong about Nero losing his wife. I'm just wondering what he learned about Kirk through, that makes him want to go back in the past and kill him.
Re: Data in Countdown....SPOILERS...
That transfer already took place in NEM, and was never meant to override what passes for personality in B4, but in the hopes that the data dump (so to speak) would allow for the expansion of his program. B4 being declared sentient does nothing to affect the fact that Data's memories are still lurking in his neural nets... and, by Countdown's reckoning, will eventually take over B4, displacing whatever of that non-entity there actually is to displace. The question about memory vs. personality remains; I've always said that the two are basically one and the same, but as the standard rant points out, Data had previously received memories without becoming those people. I would say: in the case of the colonists, the forms of memory between human biology and android neural net were simply too different to be compatible; those memories Data could access as facts, but carried no further resonance. And/or, Soong had no desire for Data to simply be a shizoid amalgalm of his fellow colonists, so downloaded those memories into him in a non-intrusive fashion. In the case of Lal, Data already had something like thirty-odd years of personality built up, and was hardly going to be overwhelmed by a few days' worth of someone else memories. Conversely, Ira Graves, who deliberately made it so that his memories would overwride Data's (unlike Soong programming the colonist's memories into Data), was successful, indicating that memory can become personality under the right circumstances. What Data does to B4 is sort of like what Ira Graves did to him, albeit unintentionally, an unexpected result of the graft, emergeant property of the complex interaction of a neural net and a prior memory matrix usign the same layout. If that's the case, I wouldn't be suprised if Data would feel some regret about it, maybe even guilt if he ever gets his emotion chip back, even though there's not much he could have done about it.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
That transfer already took place in NEM, and was never meant to override what passes for personality in B4, but in the hopes that the data dump (so to speak) would allow for the expansion of his program. B4 being declared sentient does nothing to affect the fact that Data's memories are still lurking in his neural nets... and, by Countdown's reckoning, will eventually take over B4, displacing whatever of that non-entity there actually is to displace. The question about memory vs. personality remains; I've always said that the two are basically one and the same, but as the standard rant points out, Data had previously received memories without becoming those people. I would say: in the case of the colonists, the forms of memory between human biology and android neural net were simply too different to be compatible; those memories Data could access as facts, but carried no further resonance. And/or, Soong had no desire for Data to simply be a shizoid amalgalm of his fellow colonists, so downloaded those memories into him in a non-intrusive fashion. In the case of Lal, Data already had something like thirty-odd years of personality built up, and was hardly going to be overwhelmed by a few days' worth of someone else memories. Conversely, Ira Graves, who deliberately made it so that his memories would overwride Data's (unlike Soong programming the colonist's memories into Data), was successful, indicating that memory can become personality under the right circumstances. What Data does to B4 is sort of like what Ira Graves did to him, albeit unintentionally, an unexpected result of the graft, emergeant property of the complex interaction of a neural net and a prior memory matrix usign the same layout. If that's the case, I wouldn't be suprised if Data would feel some regret about it, maybe even guilt if he ever gets his emotion chip back, even though there's not much he could have done about it.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
Re: Star Trek Countdown #2
Exactly, the larger audience doesn't give a flying fuck, and the fandom is already in an uproar about the movie, weary of anything to do with it, I don't see why these comics were necessary at all.
Just give a five minute flash back at most at the beginning of the movie that shows a more futuristic future, Nero traveling to the past, everyone gets it, no fancy explanations and long winded puesdo-science where none is needed. Just "I'm evil, I'm going back in time.".
Exactly, the larger audience doesn't give a flying fuck, and the fandom is already in an uproar about the movie, weary of anything to do with it, I don't see why these comics were necessary at all.
Just give a five minute flash back at most at the beginning of the movie that shows a more futuristic future, Nero traveling to the past, everyone gets it, no fancy explanations and long winded puesdo-science where none is needed. Just "I'm evil, I'm going back in time.".
I just read Picard's remarks as one old Captain to another, nothing more. As for his uniform, it's that of an ambassador, if he was on a covert mission, he's not going to be wearing the wrong uniform is he?
I raised more of an eye-brow at the fact that High Command (or at least the Vulcan security forces) has a rank of Praetor.
Re: Star Trek Countdown #2
"The fandom" is never uniformly anything. You can't get fandom to agree that the sun rises in the east. Plenty of fans are curious about this movie and interested in any information they can get. And heck, some fans who are "in an uproar" will buy the comics just so they'll have more to, err, roar up about.
Of course any necessary backstory will be provided in the movie itself. This is simply meant as a supplement, a promotional tie-in, not an integral part of the story. After all, only a tiny fraction of the filmgoing audience will ever read the comic or even be aware of its existence. The screenplay was written to tell the complete story; then, later, it was decided to do this comic, expanding on the backstory elements in the film -- and, clearly, adding elements that have nothing whatsoever to do with the film, such as Data.
"The fandom" is never uniformly anything. You can't get fandom to agree that the sun rises in the east. Plenty of fans are curious about this movie and interested in any information they can get. And heck, some fans who are "in an uproar" will buy the comics just so they'll have more to, err, roar up about.
Of course any necessary backstory will be provided in the movie itself. This is simply meant as a supplement, a promotional tie-in, not an integral part of the story. After all, only a tiny fraction of the filmgoing audience will ever read the comic or even be aware of its existence. The screenplay was written to tell the complete story; then, later, it was decided to do this comic, expanding on the backstory elements in the film -- and, clearly, adding elements that have nothing whatsoever to do with the film, such as Data.
Re: Data in Countdown....SPOILERS...
I like the theory. Would it also be feasible to assume that if B4 was sentient, at some point he could either:
A) interpret that there was a vast amount of information in his system and chose to "bond" with it, there by willingly choosing to become Data - or at least call himself Data since the ratio of information would be 99.8% Data vs .2 Other (Lal, colonists, Ira, Lore, B4, etc.)
B) or perhaps he could have been given the option by researchers thusly: "B4, how would you like to experience everything Data had experienced before he no longer functioned? It would allow you to be closer to the only other entity in the universe similar to your design; in a sense it would allow you to know your family in ways you cannot imagine right now. . . And you would become a different being if you chose to do this. You would be a new individual - in a way, you would be a grown-up. You might even be able to pick up where he left off and explore the galaxy like he did. This was something he wanted to do for you as your brother - pass along everything he was on to you. Do you accept?
In the B scenario, he could also have chosen to call himself Data given the ratio, as there was insufficient disparity between the personalities to continue on as a separate individual. Given Spock's precedent of continuing on as Spock and not "Spock 2.0", he may have come to this conclusion as the most logical option.
Whew - I've been keeping that one in all day!!!
I like the theory. Would it also be feasible to assume that if B4 was sentient, at some point he could either:
A) interpret that there was a vast amount of information in his system and chose to "bond" with it, there by willingly choosing to become Data - or at least call himself Data since the ratio of information would be 99.8% Data vs .2 Other (Lal, colonists, Ira, Lore, B4, etc.)
B) or perhaps he could have been given the option by researchers thusly: "B4, how would you like to experience everything Data had experienced before he no longer functioned? It would allow you to be closer to the only other entity in the universe similar to your design; in a sense it would allow you to know your family in ways you cannot imagine right now. . . And you would become a different being if you chose to do this. You would be a new individual - in a way, you would be a grown-up. You might even be able to pick up where he left off and explore the galaxy like he did. This was something he wanted to do for you as your brother - pass along everything he was on to you. Do you accept?
In the B scenario, he could also have chosen to call himself Data given the ratio, as there was insufficient disparity between the personalities to continue on as a separate individual. Given Spock's precedent of continuing on as Spock and not "Spock 2.0", he may have come to this conclusion as the most logical option.
Whew - I've been keeping that one in all day!!!
Re: Data in Countdown....SPOILERS...
I have a hard time picturing option (B), to be honest. Given B4's disability, he couldn't reasonably be expected to make such a choice; no court in the land would consider B4 agreeing to such as thing as true consent given his infant-like reasoning ability. It would have to be made by his guardians, whomever they are, and that doesn't seem likely with B4 now recognized as an individual in his own right.
I could see option (A) working, however. In the hands of a skilled author, it could even be a beautiful, Flowers for Algenon-esque story of B4 becoming just self-aware enough to voluntarily sublimate himself so that his 'brother' might live again. Perhaps he feels guilty over what he did in NEM, despite the fact that his actual responsibility is limited by his disability, and one sacrifice redeems the other.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
I have a hard time picturing option (B), to be honest. Given B4's disability, he couldn't reasonably be expected to make such a choice; no court in the land would consider B4 agreeing to such as thing as true consent given his infant-like reasoning ability. It would have to be made by his guardians, whomever they are, and that doesn't seem likely with B4 now recognized as an individual in his own right.
I could see option (A) working, however. In the hands of a skilled author, it could even be a beautiful, Flowers for Algenon-esque story of B4 becoming just self-aware enough to voluntarily sublimate himself so that his 'brother' might live again. Perhaps he feels guilty over what he did in NEM, despite the fact that his actual responsibility is limited by his disability, and one sacrifice redeems the other.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
Well, the comics appear to be telling us that Nero's revenge is a Highlander-esque one, i.e. "I will hurt everything and everyone you care about, because in my mind, you did the same to me."
Thus, he sets out to destroy Vulcan (and, it seems, Spock's family there) because Romulus was destroyed, and messes with Kirk's history because he's the person closest to Spock...
Thus, he sets out to destroy Vulcan (and, it seems, Spock's family there) because Romulus was destroyed, and messes with Kirk's history because he's the person closest to Spock...
Interesting points. Quoted you here:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=83899&page=3
I've been trying to figure out why exactly he's searching for Enterprise captains and how that's going to get his revenge. . . So it's a
"You killed my family, with your inaction stupid Vulcans! Especially you, Spock! (Even though you were the only one who tried) So I will not only take away your history with Jim Kirk (whom I randomly learned about one night whilst googling the Federation Internet), but I will blow up Vulcan to teach those bastards a lesson!"
kinda thing. . .
I didn't quite enjoy this issue as much as the first. It was great seeing Picard, and as an ambassador, but I was hoping for the cool goatee like in the show "Future Imperfect." Now that would've been sweet.
I didn't like Data being 'resurrected' from B4. Even though it was probably the easiest explanation, and NEM had pretty much set that up as a possibility it just felt wrong for Data to snuff out B4, no matter how limited the android's mental compacity was. I would've liked it better if perhaps Geordi had constructed a new android body for the essence of Data that B4 contained.
I'm starting to get a Soran vibe from Nero. I thought Soran was cool, but that type of obssessive character has been explored before: Khan, Sybok, Soran, and maybe Kruge to some extent. I was hoping for something a little different, or at least a bit more plausible. If Nero had been a military commander-that might've been typical too-but I could at least feel he would be capable to make good on his threat.
The artwork was great, I love the new Enterprise/Starfleet uniforms.
I didn't like Data being 'resurrected' from B4. Even though it was probably the easiest explanation, and NEM had pretty much set that up as a possibility it just felt wrong for Data to snuff out B4, no matter how limited the android's mental compacity was. I would've liked it better if perhaps Geordi had constructed a new android body for the essence of Data that B4 contained.
I'm starting to get a Soran vibe from Nero. I thought Soran was cool, but that type of obssessive character has been explored before: Khan, Sybok, Soran, and maybe Kruge to some extent. I was hoping for something a little different, or at least a bit more plausible. If Nero had been a military commander-that might've been typical too-but I could at least feel he would be capable to make good on his threat.
The artwork was great, I love the new Enterprise/Starfleet uniforms.
I am actually hoping that this is the case. Maybe it has to do with the undercover Starfleet crew, working on the problem of the supernova.
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