Star Trek 4 Reportedly Shelved

[MakeshiftPython]

But the Klingons thing was eventually addressed and very well at that.

Except that wasn't "addressed" for 25 years. All that time no one on many Trek productions after TMP ever had any intention of explaining why the Klingons looked so different, because they rightly assumed most fans would not be so ridiculously literal about such visual upgrades. The presumption was that the Klingons always looked like that, and that TOS is really the odd man out.

 

[Dar70]

Except that wasn't "addressed" for 25 years. All that time no one on many Trek productions after TMP ever had any intention of explaining why the Klingons looked so different, because they rightly assumed most fans would not be so ridiculously literal about such visual upgrades. The presumption was that the Klingons always looked like that, and that TOS is really the odd man out.

But it was something that nagged fans for years and they did have a neat way of explaining it. But even if they never did why did the have to do another redesign.?They had been pretty consistent from tmp except for hair length. But discovery was a huge departure from that. There was nothing wrong with the klingon look. No reason to update again except ego on the part of the producers imo. Set design I can understand to a point. But to completely change everything makes no sense. Producers of the Star Wars prequels and sequels have done a much better job of maintaining a consistent look throughout out the years. Star Trek has become a complete mess in that regards and that includes continuity and the biggest offender is Discovery. Fans were up in Arms over Enterprise when it first came out. That show is way more inline with what should have e been done with discovery.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

STAR WARS can get away with it because the sets from the 70s look still convincing, as it was designed to be seen in cinema which required more detailed sets. TOS was designed for 19 inch fuzzy televisions. To recreate all that for an ongoing series might be approved by fans that love the old show, but non-Trek viewers might not find it so enticing. As for Klingons, for whatever reason Bryan Fuller wanted bald Klingons. That wasn't well received, and to the credit of the current producers they're restoring the look of Klingons as we've known since the TOS films. Frankly I could do without Klingons completely, as I think they've been played out since DS9 ended.

All said, I personally don't care about set changes. All I want are good stories, and season two is looking promising in that regard. If CBS wants to later feature the Enterprise looking like the 60s sets, cool, just as long as I get a good yarn out of it.

 

[donners22]

There is such a thing as "bad/lazy Trek," continuing to support bad Trek encourages the people making it to think that they can make a substandard product, slap the name Star Trek on it and the money (and the fans) will flow in.

Rejecting bad Trek, while still supporting Trek as a concept, will hopefully motivate TPTB to put some effort and research into making a superior product.

The classification of "bad/lazy Trek" is in the eye of the beholder.

I would classify much of TNG and Voyager, for instance, as "bad/lazy Trek", in that they are often generic, forgettable, predictable and relying on tropes that were run into the ground in early TNG, let alone later series.

There's a reason why many consider DS9, with disgruntled ex-TNG writers at its heart, to be the best Trek series.

I have more respect for the Kelvin films and Discovery, for shaking things up a bit (and being entertaining in the process) than I would for something which followed some rigid definition of what Trek should be (not that there is any reasonable definition which wouldn't exclude great Trek of the past).

I want more of that Trek. Others want TNG part 2. In a perfect world, we'd both get something to satisfy ourselves, and not begrudge the other. The toxic nature of a loud portion of the fanbase makes me unfortunately pessimistic. I fear the Picard show will either attract a similar hate-train to Discovery, or will wind up pitting fans against each other.

 

[Rahul]

STAR WARS can get away with it because the sets from the 70s look still convincing, as it was designed to be seen in cinema which required more detailed sets. TOS was designed for 19 inch fuzzy televisions. To recreate all that for an ongoing series might be approved by fans that love the old show, but non-Trek viewers might not find it so enticing. As for Klingons, for whatever reason Bryan Fuller wanted bald Klingons. That wasn't well received, and to the credit of the current producers they're restoring the look of Klingons as we've known since the TOS films. Frankly I could do without Klingons completely, as I think they've been played out since DS9 ended.

All said, I personally don't care about set changes. All I want are good stories, and season two is looking promising in that regard. If CBS wants to later feature the Enterprise looking like the 60s sets, cool, just as long as I get a good yarn out of it.

What you overlook is - Star Wars has been massively updated visually for modern audiences. If you look at the Death Star sets of "A New Hope" - it looks ridiculously cheap! Same for a lot of the effects, the original Stardestroyers didn't even have lightning! (That was added for the new models in "Empire")

What I'm saying: They set out to recreate the look of the original, while of course updating the values.

And that's IMO what should have been done with Trek on DIS. Hell, J.J. Abrams already did an admirably job on the movies, visually-wise! The very same sets and props DIS uses right now - just have them painted in a brighter grey, red doors, colorfull carpets, red-gree-yellow computer screens instead of blue ones - it would have already looked much more in line with Trek continuity!

This is really nothing they couldn't have done based on the quality of the original. The original aesthetic is iconic! They just didn't WANT to, and actively set out to make the opposite acually. And that rubbed a lot of us the wrong way.

 

[fireproof78]

But it was something that nagged fans for years and they did have a neat way of explaining it. But even if they never did why did the have to do another redesign.?They had been pretty consistent from tmp except for hair length. But discovery was a huge departure from that. There was nothing wrong with the klingon look. No reason to update again except ego on the part of the producers imo. Set design I can understand to a point. But to completely change everything makes no sense. Producers of the Star Wars prequels and sequels have done a much better job of maintaining a consistent look throughout out the years. Star Trek has become a complete mess in that regards and that includes continuity and the biggest offender is Discovery. Fans were up in Arms over Enterprise when it first came out. That show is way more inline with what should have e been done with discovery.

No, there was nothing wrong with the Klingon look. But, I also see nothing wrong with the Discovery adding more to the Klingon look.

The explanation for the difference in Klingon look was unnecessary and cumbersome. But, the fact that it exists provides a perfect excuse for why Discovery Klingons look different. So, no harm, no foul, in my view.

 

[Smellmet]

What you overlook is - Star Wars has been massively updated visually for modern audiences. If you look at the Death Star sets of "A New Hope" - it looks ridiculously cheap! Same for a lot of the effects, the original Stardestroyers didn't even have lightning! (That was added for the new models in "Empire")

What I'm saying: They set out to recreate the look of the original, while of course updating the values.

And that's IMO what should have been done with Trek on DIS. Hell, J.J. Abrams already did an admirably job on the movies, visually-wise! The very same sets and props DIS uses right now - just have them painted in a brighter grey, red doors, colorfull carpets, red-gree-yellow computer screens instead of blue ones - it would have already looked much more in line with Trek continuity!

This is really nothing they couldn't have done based on the quality of the original. The original aesthetic is iconic! They just didn't WANT to, and actively set out to make the opposite acually. And that rubbed a lot of us the wrong way.

I'm more than happy to suspend my disbelief on this matter and pretend that the sets always looked like this. Bottom line is this has got to look like it's 200 years into the future for 2018/19 audiences, which it largely succeeds in doing so. Trying to marry it with a 50 year old show that used big coloured buttons that looked like giant boiled sweets is a fools errand.

 

[Rahul]

I'm more than happy to suspend my disbelief on this matter and pretend that the sets always looked like this. Bottom line is this has got to look like it's 200 years into the future for 2018/19 audiences, which it largely succeeds in doing so. Trying to marry it with a 50 year old show that used big coloured buttons that looked like giant boiled sweets is a fools errand.

I think you missed the point of what I was saying:
I don't want a new modern show to have the same jelly-buttons from the 60s on cardboard-boxes. I would have liked a new TOS-era show to have modern day interactive graphics, 3d imagery and interactive visuals, using the aesthetics and color scheme of the 60s show!

The colorfull JJTrek uniforms and sleek props (phaser, tricorder etc.) are a perfect example of a great "update": No one has accused these props to look "dated". Yet they perfectly capture the spirit of the TOS designs, much better than the DIS uniforms or props even.

 

[Smellmet]

I think you missed the point of what I was saying:
I don't want a new modern show to have the same jelly-buttons from the 60s on cardboard-boxes. I would have liked a new TOS-era show to have modern day interactive graphics, 3d imagery and interactive visuals, using the aesthetics and color scheme of the 60s show!

The colorfull JJTrek uniforms and sleek props (phaser, tricorder etc.) are a perfect example of a great "update": No one has accused these props to look "dated". Yet they perfectly capture the spirit of the TOS designs, much better than the DIS uniforms or props even.

I get the impression that it's more the interior of the Discovery that looks this way, as when Pike appears he seems to be dressed in TOS garb. I've only seen the second episode once, did we get to see the interior of the enterprise at all? I seem to think we saw red turbo lift doors or am I mistaken?

 

[Rahul]

I get the impression that it's more the interior of the Discovery that looks this way, as when Pike appears he seems to be dressed in TOS garb. I've only seen the second episode once, did we get to see the interior of the enterprise at all? I seem to think we saw red turbo lift doors or am I mistaken?

Yeah, what we saw of the Enterprise in the pilot was just a re-purposed DIS-floor set with red accents instead of gold.
I like that they are taking this direction now, but it's certainly notable they are retro-fitting things, it would have been much better if they started out with this design approach.

I'll hold my judgement until we actually see more of the Enterprise - especially the bridge. Then we'll see wether they actually use updated TOS aesthetics, or DIS-aesthetics with a little skin on it.

One of my major beefs with the design language of DIS is it's very brutalistic approach - massive, bulky, intimidating sets. Whereas TOS had more of a sleek, stylish art-deco appereance. Both design languages have lots of sharp lines, edges and angles - but the TOS is by far the more individualistic approach, whereas brutalism always has... unfortunate implications.

One of the reasons why I even think Ryan Church's JJprise is a better update than the NX-01 inspired DISCOprise: He also ditched the art deco, but for a more organic style. He kept the sleekness and elegance of the design, which is IMO way more important than people realise, wheras everything on DIS looks so... block-y. Even the 60s Enterprise has more rounded edges (on the neck, pylons, deflector dish area) then the completely square & squat DISCOprise.

 

[Smellmet]

Yeah, what we saw of the Enterprise in the pilot was just a re-purposed DIS-floor set with red accents instead of gold.
I like that they are taking this direction now, but it's certainly notable they are retro-fitting things, it would have been much better if they started out with this design approach.

I'll hold my judgement until we actually see more of the Enterprise - especially the bridge. Then we'll see wether they actually use updated TOS aesthetics, or DIS-aesthetics with a little skin on it.

One of my major beefs with the design language of DIS is it's very brutalistic approach - massive, bulky, intimidating sets. Whereas TOS had more of a sleek, stylish art-deco appereance. Both design languages have lots of sharp lines, edges and angles - but the TOS is by far the more individualistic approach, whereas brutalism always has... unfortunate implications.

One of the reasons why I even think Ryan Church's JJprise is a better update than the NX-01 inspired DISCOprise: He also ditched the art deco, but for a more organic style. He kept the sleekness and elegance of the design, which is IMO way more important than people realise, wheras everything on DIS looks so... block-y. Even the 60s Enterprise has more rounded edges (on the neck, pylons, deflector dish area) then the completely square & squat DISCOprise.

The impression I get is that the USS Discovery is a more of an experimental ship, hence the different uniforms and interior/exterior design. Either way I like the design of the ship and it's interior, I think the set designs whether you approve of them are not are one of the strongest aspects of the show - the uniforms, not so much, but it's all subjective.

 

[Rahul]

The impression I get is that the USS Discovery is a more of an experimental ship, hence the different uniforms and interior/exterior design. Either way I like the design of the ship and it's interior, I think the set designs whether you approve of them are not are one of the strongest aspects of the show - the uniforms, not so much, but it's all subjective.

Oh yeah, the sets are certainly super well made! I'm just a continuity-cruncher, and TOS is still my absolute favourite Trek show, so everything in Trek that's in conflict with it - I side with TOS (hell, I don't even like the red-cap/blue-sidelines style for nacelles that has been so prevalent since TNG).

In this regard - the sets are good, they are just not period-accurate. Like having a new Star Wars movie that takes place during the original trilogy, but looks like the prequels!

In fact, I think DIS has a look very similar to Voyager of all the Trek shows! That ship also had rather bulky and heavy sets and a very similar aesthetic style. And I liked the sets of VOY. But I wouldn't put them during the TOS era. In my opinion - just another case where I think the creatorst clearly wanted to do a "modern" Trek show (in the style of the TNG and post-TNG series), instead of "going back" to the TOS era like the JJverse movies tried to.

 

[Lance]

J.J. Abrams already did an admirably job on the movies, visually-wise! The very same sets and props DIS uses right now - just have them painted in a brighter grey, red doors, colorfull carpets, red-gree-yellow computer screens instead of blue ones - it would have already looked much more in line with Trek continuity!

I find myself in agreement with this. The strawman argument everyone uses when someone complains about Discovery's look is always "I suppose you want it to look like jellybeans on cardboard sets held together with string", well no, of course we don't, we just think (as the Abrams movies did) you can approach a classic aesthetic in new ways that will resonate with 2019 audiences while still retaining faith with the past/future the show is supposed to be a prequel to. DSC season one wasn't even interested in trying to do that.

 

[Lance]

The Star Wars comparison feels valid, too. Newer instalments have always reflected the expectations of modern audiences without, as it were, throwing the baby out with the bath water. The Star Wars design aesthetic continues to evolve, but retains 1950s and 1970s influences, that resonate and connect the visual narrative of the franchise. Star Trek's visual narrative is all over the place, mainly because successive producers on the show haven't been too concerned about touching base with that past, but instead seem embarrassed by it.

 

[Smellmet]

I find myself in agreement with this. The strawman argument everyone uses when someone complains about Discovery's look is always "I suppose you want it to look like jellybeans on cardboard sets held together with string", well no, of course we don't, we just think (as the Abrams movies did) you can approach a classic aesthetic in new ways that will resonate with 2019 audiences while still retaining faith with the past/future the show is supposed to be a prequel to. DSC season one wasn't even interested in trying to do that.

I think the discovery sets look hardly any different to the sets in the kelvin movies. I certainly don't see the bright colours of TOS in the reboot series of films bar the uniforms, so I don't much understand why people are happy with the films but not discovery.

 

[Lance]

I think the discovery sets look hardly any different to the sets in the kelvin movies. I certainly don't see the bright colours of TOS in the reboot series of films bar the uniforms, so I don't much understand why people are happy with the films but not discovery.

The brighter white aesthetic, red accents, colourful uniforms, all of these things take an approach that says "updating the original aesthetic". DSC, and ENT for that matter, took greater liberties in basically saying, we want it to look darker and more menacing. They didn't really try, at least not in the beginning.

I will grant you, DSC's sets and uniforms are hardly different to how the USS Kelvin looks in the beginning of the 2009 movie. And that probably is contemporaneous...

 

[F. King Daniel]

Yeah, Discovery to me looks like the USS Kelvin internal look evolved in a different direction to the Kelvinprise.

 

[Butters]

It’s funny how the Star Trek 09 Enterprise, with its brewery engineering and Apple store bridge, is now on the pedestal of how to do it right.

 

[Lance]

It’s funny how the Star Trek 09 Enterprise, with its brewery engineering and Apple store bridge, is now on the pedestal of how to do it right.

I can't speak for everyone, but personally, I thought they did it right all along. The '09 designs always felt to me evocative of the 1960s show without being a slave to it, exactly the right way to update that style. They hit that right out of the park. Brewery engine room and all

 

[saddestmoon]

^^^ I feel similarly and absolute concur with every word in your post!