Star Trek 2017 will not be set in the JJ-Verse

[Squiggy]

I'm getting bored of repeatedly saying this but again, the JJ-Verse basically just means no Vulcan and no Kirk's dad.

That's it.

Why do people talk about it as though it's a massively divergent universe with massively differing sensibilities, people, visuals, technologies, ideas, etc etc.

It's just fucking TNG but with no mention of Vulcan or Kirk's dad.

That's it. That's your wildly divergent universe.

Agreed. But if you dare to propose the new series might continue the old universe, some dumbass comes around the corner and insults you for not loving the JJ-movies as much as you are obligated to...

No, we tell you you're probably wrong due to the overwhelming evidence that supports what we think (they hired the guy who created nuTrek to be the showrunner, it was profitable, he's been successful in TV before vs. Prime was beaten to death, lost to JLo, and even the fans were walking away in the end)- we don't make shit up just because we like JJ.

We don't need do.

If I really need to show you a graph that shows you $853,062,030 is a lot of fucking money, I can...but I really hope I don't have to.

 

[Campe]

I, for the most part, enjoyed JJ's two Trek movies. Were they perfect? Absolutely not. But what they did do, in my opinion, was bring back the vibe of the original Star Trek. Moreso than anything, even the TOS movies. And for that, I love the JJ films. I will happily admit when someone is right in their criticisms.

What I don't understand is the tendency to bad mouth them at every turn. I've used this point time and again and I will continue to. I hated Voyager when it was on the air but I didn't bash it online. I watched maybe a third of the episodes and just decided to live and let live. With the JJ films, it just seems that everyone who hates it feels the need to bash it at every opportunity. And before someone tries to argue that JJ is the only Trek we have, I'd like to remind that from 1999-2001, other than Insurrection (which I was also less than fond of), Voyager was the only Trek we had.

 

[Rahul]

Man, I really don't care what a movie ticket in America costs. The fact remains: The JJ-movies are a moderately successfull blockbuster franchise (not that I ever disagreed on that part, but thanks for reminding me in every post nevertheless). But their audience was mostly older and consisting of people who already were Trek audience before.

A new series would need to gain more younger viewers. And regarding the circumstances, that is more easily achieved by not setting it in the new continuity. Legal issues, viewership numbers, the split of Kurtzman and Orci, the uninvolvement of Bad robot and the grudge between CBS and abrams not even mentioning.

All I hope for is a good and entertaining new series. And maybe a guest appereance by Patrick Steward.



EDIT:
Have you ever seen me trashing the JJ-movies??? No? Then stop starting fights with people out of felt obligation to defend "your" movies everytime someone mentions them.

Again. I think those movies don't work as a starting point for a new series. But I mostly enjoy them purely as exciting entertainment. But guys like you who jump at EVERY criticism of them, how narrow it might be, makes it really hard for people to enjoy them without being reminded of constant internet-trashtalk.

 

[Trekkin]

When your talking stats, one number matters quiet a bit (particularly when you've more than doubled it.) Especially when a lot of you're subsequent working hinges upon that wrong number.

And really, if you were trying to make the same arguement about, say: 'TMP had more viewers than First Contact, ergo First Contact only manage to hook leftover viewers of TMP,' I'd still be here saying that's no more than an unproven hypothesis (at best). The fact it's JJ's movie under discussion doesn't really matter - you haven't proven that the audience for JJ's films are the same as those who were watching TNG 20 years ago. For all you know, that drop in tickets sold was the prior TNG audiences seeing 09 and saying 'fuck this!', leaving only non-fans.

Oh, and about your prior question - I don't remember seeing many people over 30 at all, and I was at one of the first Australian screenings. I mostly remember all the teenage girls (including my younger sister) seeming to collectively *gasp* when they first heard Cumberbatch voice.

The cinema 20 min away had an event for it, so the hardcore fans you're thinking about probably would have gone to that. Not that personal anecdotes prove anything, so it's odd that it was requested.

 

[Campe]

Man, I really don't care what a movie ticket in America costs. The fact remains: The JJ-movies are a moderately successfull blockbuster franchise (not that I ever disagreed on that part, but thanks for reminding me in every post nevertheless). But their audience was mostly older and consisting of people who already were Trek audience before.

Fine, whatever. I don't care anymore.

A new series would need to gain more younger viewers. And regarding the circumstances, that is more easily achieved by not setting it in the new continuity.

All I hope for is a good and entertaining new series.

This I actually agree with you on.

And maybe a guest appereance by Patrick Steward.

Aaaand now you lost me.

 

[Paradise City]

Well, I don't care if Star Trek was revived. I wasn't mourning it myself. Many classic series are elegantly concluded for us to look back on in nostalgia.

JJ certainly did bring in the bacon in terms of the cash and the popularity. I don't doubt it. I would expect a decline as one would expect with any sequence of sequels including the legendary ones.

The JJ sensibility is what we'll see transplanted into this series I presume. I thought it was a sprawling mess, these JJ films, blowing up "Vulcan" and "Romulus" just strikes me as interplanetary Wily Coyote shenanigans in lieu of actual writing.

But the kids today like the torturous FX, the breathless non-stop action and it'll be interesting to see whether Alex K will moderate certain aspects or accentuate others with his TV series.

I don't see much resemblance between the JJ stuff and what went on before. That's not a bad/good thing per say. There's a huge gulf between TOS and TNG and DS9 and on it goes. That alone is not something I'm fazed by. You gotta update the aesthetic.

 

[martok2112]

Well, I don't care if Star Trek was revived. I wasn't mourning it myself. Many classic series are elegantly concluded for us to look back on in nostalgia.

JJ certainly did bring in the bacon in terms of the cash and the popularity. I don't doubt it. I would expect a decline as one would expect with any sequence of sequels including the legendary ones.

The JJ sensibility is what we'll see transplanted into this series I presume. I thought it was a sprawling mess, these JJ films, blowing up "Vulcan" and "Romulus" just strikes me as interplanetary Wily Coyote shenanigans in lieu of actual writing.

But the kids today like the torturous FX, the breathless non-stop action and it'll be interesting to see whether Alex K will moderate certain aspects or accentuate others with his TV series.

I don't see much resemblance between the JJ stuff and what went on before. That's not a bad/good thing per say. There's a huge gulf between TOS and TNG and DS9 and on it goes. That alone is not something I'm fazed by. You gotta update the aesthetic.

Some good points, and I especially agree with the part I bolded in your quote.

It's gonna happen. It's inevitable.

I just hope it's not gonna be for a good while.

 

[Mudd]

The first scene of the first episode - pre-credits - should show the hero ship responding just a tad too late to the distress call from Vulcan.

Then we can see Vulcan explode all over again, thus establishing the setting of the series without question.

The second episode should be a kind of "Cause And Effect" sequel where the action keeps returning to the explosion of Vulcan over and over, five or six times.

 

[Trekkin]

It would still be a better 2nd episode than 'The Naked Now.'

 

[fireproof78]

Man, I really don't care what a movie ticket in America costs. The fact remains: The JJ-movies are a moderately successfull blockbuster franchise (not that I ever disagreed on that part, but thanks for reminding me in every post nevertheless). But their audience was mostly older and consisting of people who already were Trek audience before.

A new series would need to gain more younger viewers. And regarding the circumstances, that is more easily achieved by not setting it in the new continuity. Legal issues, viewership numbers, the split of Kurtzman and Orci, the uninvolvement of Bad robot and the grudge between CBS and abrams not even mentioning.

A couple of points that I would like clarifying on, due to my curiosity.

First, what grudge between Abrams and CBS? To the best of my research the relationship is still viable and Abrams and Bad Robot got another job, which in Hollywood, happens.

Secondly-what legal issues? CBS owns Star Trek, even if the terms of that ownership are complicated when there was the split. All evidence points towards CBS has the right to utilize the continuity if they wanted to. Or, if nothing else, get in to some negotiations with Paramount and make it happen.

Third, Orci and Kurtzman splitting, from what I read, is on the film side, while TV production is still in the same company. So, not really news so much as career changes, which, again, Hollywood.

Finally, while I understand your point, I have to disagree that the new films were not a good launching point. The cast was younger, the look was far more contemporary, and the story was equal parts action and commentary, so there really was fodder for all.

The idea that the new continuity does not lend itself to a new series is not one I can agree with. I think it provides any number of jumping off points (new ships, new crews or even the Kelvin and her story) as well as a look that feels more contemporary.

Granted, the bigger budget feel might not be doable on TV, but shouldn't immediately preclude it from being developed. I mean, even the TOS films borrowed TNG sets, so it could work.

I honestly think that Abrams, Prime or a Reboot could all work. It's all in the characters and the story.

 

[Wulff359]

There are 3 different Fan-Bases out there right now. The ones that want the show to be in the JJ Verse, the ones that want it in prime, and the ones that don't care in which, as long as there IS a new show. (I left the ones wishing for a reboot out, to simplify things.) Now, if the JJ movies have split up the fan-base (to what extend is still not certain: 50/50? 20/80? 95/5?), could a new show (if done right) not bring it back together?

I am still thinking about the possibility of the two timelines merging at one point again, as the reason to go back in time after Nemesis will not exist anymore. There is no Vulcan in the JJ-Verse, so Nero has no reason to return through time. And in the JJ-Verse they could find a way to safe Romulus from the super-Nova explosion. So the JJ-Verse could actualy lead back into the prime-timeline.

This is of course just one example how it could be done. Question is, could this really bring the fans back together? Or will there be continued fighting with anyone that has a different opinion?

 

[Trekkin]

A Crisis event? Star Trek: Secret Wars (2015)?

 

[Myko]

After old Star Trek, nu-Star Trek, Fringe and now Flash I'm really tired of time travel and alternate universes/timelines. I hope we can do something else in the new series.

 

[Paradise City]

Time travelling has been absolutely hacked to death and indifference, particularly by Voyager but also by DS9 and some of the TNG films and a mistake JJ made was doing that stuff too. Couldn't they just crowbar in Nimoy as Spock's wise old granddad Ambassador Mock or something and give the old time travelling trope the elbow?

 

[JWPlatt]

...Couldn't they just crowbar in Nimoy...

Seriously? That would be a neat trick.

In reference to the OP, just how, exactly, do they differentiate Trek-is-Trek rights from Prime and nuTrek? I'd like to see example language for that.

 

[Squiggy]

I was hoping I wasn't going to have to to do this but...

Man, I really don't care what a movie ticket in America costs. The fact remains: The JJ-movies are a moderately successfull blockbuster franchise (not that I ever disagreed on that part, but thanks for reminding me in every post nevertheless).

850 million dollars is "moderately successful"? What do you consider a clear success?

But their audience was mostly older

Going to need to see some sort of stat to back up that claim, sport.

and consisting of people who already were Trek audience before.

If you include everyone who watched one single episode of Star Trek 30 years ago and don't take into account that a good portion of that audience has died while simultaneously going under the assumption that no one under the age of 25 saw the movie...sure. I'll buy that.

A new series would need to gain more younger viewers.

We agree!

And regarding the circumstances, that is more easily achieved by not setting it in the new continuity.

"You know what'll bring in the kids, Bob? That same stuff we did decades ago that didn't work. Do that."

Legal issues

Of which there are none. CBS. Owns. Star. Trek.

viewership numbers,

The dwindling numbers in Prime Trek or the (moderately) blockbuster success of nuTrek?

the split of Kurtzman and Orci,

For movies. They're still working on TV together. HAY! GUESS WHAT THIS IS!

the uninvolvement of Bad robot

Kurtzman produced Trek under the Bad Robot Banner. He also produced Fringe under the Bad Robot banner. Unless you can show me that Kurtzman stole a stapler when he was fired from Bad Robot, you can assume that they're still on good terms and it doesn't matter.

Also, Bad Robot doesn't own nuTrek.

and the grudge between CBS and abrams not even mentioning.

Thanks for not mentioning the thing you mentioned.

All I hope for is a good and entertaining new series.

Agreed.

And maybe a guest appereance by Patrick Steward.

 

[Campe]

I can't believe I'm doing this but I'm actually going to defend Rahul on a few of these points...

But their audience was mostly older

Going to need to see some sort of stat to back up that claim, sport.

Rahul did post an article previously in regards to the audience skewing older. However, its a bit of a misnomer as the data he presents is for opening weekend only. The five-day opening weekend on STID was about 37% of the overall domestic box office take. The article says that 75% of the audience of those first five days were males over the age of 25. So, basically, that would say that about 28% of the audiences can be identified as being males over the age of 25. We have no demographic makeup for the remaining 72%. Regardless, it's unfair to say that 75% of the entire $228.8 million can fall into the demographic listed.

the split of Kurtzman and Orci,

For movies. They're still working on TV together. HAY! GUESS WHAT THIS IS!

Well, do we know that? The press release indicates:

The new series will be produced by CBS Television Studios in association with Kurtzman’s Secret Hideout. Kurtzman and Heather Kadin will serve as executive producers. Kurtzman is also an executive producer for the hit CBS television series Scorpion and Limitless, along with Kadin and Orci, and for Hawaii Five-0 with Orci.

Other than his past involvement in Trek and with Kurtzman, I see no reference to Orci mentioned in conjunction with the new series.

 

[Squiggy]

Gotcha. Is going from a 35% under 25 audience to a 25% under 25 audience really indicative of anything? ST09 had the luxury of going up against some pretty big bombs or otherwise unmemorable movies. Wolverine was in its 2nd week. Ghosts of Girlfriends Past, Obsessed, and 17 Again rounded out the top 5.

STID went up against Ironman 3 in its 3rd week. Not that friendly of a market. I have absolutely no evidence to support this hypothesis, but couldn't that change in the opening's demographics be attributed to kids opting to see Ironman over Star Trek?


I also resent the notion that over 25 is older. GET OFF MY LAWN, YOUNG RENTERS!

And regarding Kurtzman/Orci, I think Rahul was saying they split to show a rift had formed betwix the two and that somehow proved nuTrek wasn't viable for TV? Something like that. Anywho, it doesn't really have a bearing on ST'17 one way or the other.

I wasn't saying Orci was involved in the project, just that the rumors of their death have been exaggerated.

 

[Mudd]

Other than his past involvement in Trek and with Kurtzman, I see no reference to Orci mentioned in conjunction with the new series.

Okay, but to be fair so far we see no reference to anyone being involved other than Kurtzman.

When we start seeing other names I'm willing to bet that a lot of them will be people Kurtzman has worked with recently - and a couple will be people who've worked on Trek on television before.

 

[Campe]

Gotcha. Is going from a 35% under 25 audience to a 25% under 25 audience really indicative of anything? ST09 had the luxury of going up against some pretty big bombs or otherwise unmemorable movies. Wolverine was in its 2nd week. Ghosts of Girlfriends Past, Obsessed, and 17 Again rounded out the top 5.

STID went up against Ironman 3 in its 3rd week. Not that friendly of a market. I have absolutely no evidence to support this hypothesis, but couldn't that change in the opening's demographics be attributed to kids opting to see Ironman over Star Trek?

It's possible. Its also possible STID did what most blockbusters do -- decline after die-hard fans go see it opening weekend. But without more data, including demographics, its hard to really to know for certain. We can armchair network executive it until we're blue in the face.

I also resent the notion that over 25 is older. GET OFF MY LAWN, YOUNG RENTERS!

Hey! I resent that notion. I'm over 25 and I rent! (That's fairly temporary though.)

And regarding Kurtzman/Orci, I think Rahul was saying they split to show a rift had formed betwix the two and that somehow proved nuTrek wasn't viable for TV? Something like that. Anywho, it doesn't really have a bearing on ST'17 one way or the other.

I wasn't saying Orci was involved in the project, just that the rumors of their death have been exaggerated.

Ah. Gotcha. No, you're absolutely right from that regard.

Other than his past involvement in Trek and with Kurtzman, I see no reference to Orci mentioned in conjunction with the new series.

Okay, but to be fair so far we see no reference to anyone being involved other than Kurtzman.

Heather Kadin. (However, I get the feeling she's the business end of things. The "money" so to speak.)

When we start seeing other names I'm willing to bet that a lot of them will be people Kurtzman has worked with recently - and a couple will be people who've worked on Trek on television before.

Probably very true.